Vermintide is looking more and more like a pay-to-play game

To me this sounds surprising. Even tough I understand that the 2 games are pretty different because of the hitpoints differences, it still strikes me odd that 1-2 % can make such a massive difference to killing power.
At any rate i don’t feel like diving deep into topic I’m not familiar.

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I think the system is fine. You get a ton of content for the base price, way more than you ever got in Verm1. The situation with cosmetics in general is pretty desolate in my opinion, but you can get almost anything you want from the available offer just by playing the game for a reasonable amount of time. You can play any adventure map even without owning specific DLCs, so all you are really missing out on without spending more money are the extra careers and dlc-specific weapons, the weaves and Cataclysm. The final point may or may not be an issue, but then again if you’re interested in Cataclysm I guess it means you like the game enough to warrant spending a couple more bucks on it.

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I don’t see the issue with DLC Careers at all, they add 1 or 2 extra weapons and an entire new career. You c an’t just give something like that away for free.

And it’s never really pay 2 win, as there are plenty of non-dlc weapon’s that are strong, and at the end of the day it’s a pve game with no real competition.

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You can still get max rolls with a non red weapon, most legend enemies don’t have any meaningfull breakpoints.

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Red weapons are a major point of completion and grinding in this game for many players. New players rely on the perks on the weapons not just on the base stats. White weapons don’t provide those, and I’d love to see a new player do well on Legend with white weapons.

It really feels like the game has rolled up the earnings behind the players that have been here a long time, and trickle out the reds to newer players.

About 2 years ago I did a test where I saved up about 70 Emperor’s chests and 30 Commendation chests. I opened them all up over the course of a few days. I got 16 red weapons from those chests. The red drop rate on Xbox seems worse now, and you don’t get that many chests since you don’t get them from Okri’s book anymore. If I was starting this game, I’d be really frustrated at how long it takes to get red weapons now.

I can’t prove it but I had the same feeling. I hope it’s not the case though.

Then again this point is not inherently pay-to-play. Do reds make you stronger? Well yes of course those do, but can you pretty much achieve the same thing with yellow tier weapons? From PC side of things absolutely you can and honestly I think even console people are heavily exaggerating how much 2-3 % of power does breakpoints wise.
As I said I don’t have the data to back anything up so its just speculation on consoles side of things, but PC meta especially on cata is heavily influenced by stats such as BCR and crit/AS.(Which don’t necessarily need to be maxed out to be valuable)
Power VS stats have almost no relevance apart from some 1 shot breakpoints which are pretty easy to hit without “perfecting” stats.

What I do agree tough is that the current red drop and targeting system is something that could and should be improved upon but despite of this i really do not believe reds to be a necessity to play this game effectively.

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Vermintide is in no way a pay-to-play game.
There is no subscription, you’re not faced with a choice like “pay some money or wait 2 hours before playing the next mission”.
You can play DLC maps you don’t own when someone who does own them is hosting,
It isn’t a pay-to-win either, as the weapons choice, be it DLC or otherwise, is quite well balanced and none is overshadowed by one weapon, less so by a DLC weapon.

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¨…I mean sure, Grail Knight has BH competing with him in boss annihilation so it´d be hard to call him a p2w class…if it werent for those blessings of his because holy crap do they stack up to silly levels of power.

And saying that fire flail doesnt overshadow the rest of Sienna´s weapons also seems off. Bardins new pistol isnt entirely normal either, Coghammer is also suspicious.

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What about masterwork pistol, and Kruber spear for a really long time? I do think DLC weapons tend to be overtuned for the most part - not counting Elf axe and the few other outliers - at least for a few months after the DLC release.

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So DLC weapons are supposed to suck ass ? What about Sienna’s dagger ? Kruber’s Halberd, Exe sword, 1h sword, shield weapons ? What about Bardin’s crossbow, shotgun and handgun ? are they useless compared to MW pistol ?
Come on, please.
DLC weapons are good, but you can’t decently say they are OP or eclipsing all the other ones.

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Well, if they want to maintain a product they have to sell something attractive. GK does very good monster damage but nowhere close to a fully committed bh (can kill virtually any monster within 5 seconds) or even a beam bw, which are both standard options. The Flaming Flail is very strong on Unchained, but I wouldn’t call it a top pick on bw and pyro. Engi is in a weird place. The career itself is rather lackluster, but the weapons that come along with it are too strong on rv/slayer, so yeah some tweaking is probably in order there.

DLC weapons in general have a history of being kinda over the top at release, but I think it’s natural for that to happen given the lack of proper testing in a large environment. Also they tend to break the game far less than over the top careers, and neither of the premium careers have come close to how broken some of the base ones were/still are.

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Except i can? Honestly from my POV comparing Sienna dagger to her flail and saying they´re equally good is like saying Elf 1h sword is just as good as the sword&dagger by itself. And Exe sword isnt even in the OP league, strong sure but far from OP on it´s own.

As for bardins ranged weapons relative to pistol, well basically yeah, with the exception of sniping purposes the masterwork pistols is extremely superior for anything as far as cata is concerned. Kills elites extremely fast, kills berserkers, wrecks bosses, doesnt even seem to be bad with hordes.

And if you need a sniper? Why the uptownfunk would you ever pick any Bardin over BH or Huntsman?

Now there are some exceptionally powerful weapons even in the OG selection such as hagbane, sword&dagger, rapier and whatnot that are also exceedingly potent but they are outliers and the first one of those should have been nerfed or changed quite some time ago.

But Fatshark´s balancing plans have previously shown to be extremely weird and even contradictory at times, like nerfing some boss killers from a level but buffing others beyond it for instance.

Now this is a fair argument, but there ought to be limits and both Grail Knight and BH are killing bosses much too quickly IMO. And while beamstaff does pump out serious DPS it does have shortcomings enough.

But i´d still say GK is honestly powerful on his own, and with those teamwide blessings his impact is beyond normal. Getting that regen and/or extra hero power early in a run is like playing on easy mode if you are already using something strong. Strong like Fire flail smacking heaps of stormvermin around dealing fairly good damage and keeping them stunlocked like a traffic jam.

Only reason i can think off that enables dagger or firesword to compete as viable picks is the fact that Sienna in general is so good at vaporizing hordes with her staves or abilities that she can just leave surviving elites to her team as leftovers.

As for Engi, indeed i intentionally did not mention him as i cant see a problem with him, just as i didnt mention the weaponry Grail Knight brought along.

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We actually gonna say A + F, Billhook, MW Pistol, Coghammer, Bret LS, Tuskgor Spear, Flaming Flail, Crowbill, Mace + Sword, amongst others aren’t power creep weapons? That’s a ridiculous point of view to take. Yes, thankfully quite a number of those have been pulled in line (though mace + sword is stronger than ever lol), but at very least upon release basically every single one of those introduced significant power creep for their respective character.

Even after significant balancing most classes without access to DLC weapons absolutely do not have as good a clear chance as they do with those weapons accessible.

It’s the sort of thing I have trouble even acknowledging as a different point of view, it’s so blindingly obvious.

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Yet most characters have effective alternatives to the DLC weapons. Sienna has her Flaming Sword (1hSword on Pyro), Saltz his Rapier (and Flail for Zealot), Elgi her Duals, and Bardin his Dual Axes and most importantly his 2h Axe. The only character that would get the short end of the stick when you get rid of the DLC weapons is Kruber. If you take M&S, Longsword, and Spear away there is a pretty decent gap between those and the next weapon in line. The Halberd.

I dont think there is an issue with DLC weapons being as strong/useful as the base game ones. There would hardly be a reason to run them if that wouldnt be the case.
If Cata wasnt locked behind WoM, you wouldnt get handicapped by the equipment you can field. You would just feel more restricted.
Iam not saying some stuff isnt ridiculous, first in line MP and Cog. Iam just saying that its not as bad as some of this thread makes it look like.

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While I understand why the paid content looks the way it does. It still looks bad. The base game is insane value but they’re charging for all of the things. New maps-paid, new weapons-paid, new game mode-paid, new difficulty setting-paid, new hats-paid, new classes-paid. Its easy to look at my playtime and say “value met” and for me that’s true. But does the existing DLC system look friendly to any new player trying to get into the game?’

I understand Fatshark needs money to fund game development. The issue is that they didn’t pick a good model and stick with it. They chose to monetize so many different things to the point that, I don’t know how I would describe the paymodel other than P2P.

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the paymodel is not Pay 2 Play

you don’t need any of the DLC to enjoy the content on offer until well over a few hundred hours in and it’s all entirely optional

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I see a problem with engi, namely that he’s kinda meh outside of his weapons. The base careers are better for any role and even perform way better with his own weapons, which is highly abnormal. He does have a long range drakegun, but it’s inferior in all aspects to the actual drakegun. And yet this is considered a premium career?

Bottom line is balancing won’t be perfect at release, but hopefully FS have the interest to fix things and see the opportunity in doing so. You have plenty to do in this game without owning extra content and you aren’t left to be playing with wooden swords while everyone else gets the cool stuff.

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Im pretty sure the reason of the disagreement is that people say those are op because they are easier to use, but if you know how to use the base one well (which take time I agree) then they yield a similar result.

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Outcast Engineer is outshined in practically every scenario, whether specific or general.
Boss damage at range? Waystalker, Huntsman, Bounty Hunter, Battle Wizard; all either outperform or function on a similar level. Granted all of them use ammunition that’s unlimited, but doesn’t require such a charge up time.
Team damage buffs? WHC and Huntsman both outclass the engineer, even Grail Knight has a chance to not only grant the buff, but also give it as straight power rather than a local ranged damage buff.
Powerful special deletion? Outclassed by any hero with a crossbow or longbow
Horde deletion? Iron breaker does it better, while still having a real ultimate. Swiftbow waystalker has better range, dodge, and armor damage, all with instant firing, but less overall DPS output. Given the other factors she probably clears it faster however.
Stagger? Piston power is amazing, but still outclassed by the Battle Wizard having two staggers, Foot Knight having a massive AOE knockdown on Chaos Warriors, Mercenary/WHC shout hitting all enemies, IB taunting and running off.
Which leaves the final category:
Bombs.
The bombs which are entirely random, often in better hands with other team members. But OE can hold 3. His kit’s strongest point is holding three bombs. Which are never guaranteed!

Honestly if the mini gun is going to be such a slow and clunky weapon it should probably have double the maximum ammunition, or half the ammo cost, or 50% increased damage. As is it doesn’t feel like an ult. It feels like a second ranged weapon. A crappy but unlimited ammo ranged weapon. One that’s either outclassed by the flamer of IB or one that’s outclassed by Longbow WS or Repeater Pistol Huntsman. But surprise! Both of those weapons have better burst and mobility while still maintaining unlimited ammo.

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