Well, Mordhau devs stated that they´re working on imrpoving the horde mode, so there is that.
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You know what this is ? Pointless, that’s what this is… they got crapload of feedback already, and they are doing hardly anything with it, and communication is still pathetic, this is damn official forum and nobody is active here except for @Fatshark_Hedge, and he’s not answering actual questions about the game or mechanics. And then @FatsharkJulia, who is reporting bugs etc, as far as I understand it. So nobody here is actually interacting with community about the important stuff.
Btw, they would have prolly enough work for next half a year just from my short big bug list and when they are done I can write down another few pages …
They just can’t keep pushing stuff without fixing the sea of bugs, that is out there. And on top of that introducing many many old bugs.
Like that insta jumping assassins everywhere, seriously I did 2 games yesterday and was already in state of “F*ck this crap”. It’s like 3 months now ? And for example this huge issue is not fixed ? And they want more feedback, what ?
There is no need for more feedback.
People are really trying but it’s leading nowhere man.
Because it was fu… mess, absolutely horrible.
Cos they nerfed the initial stagger mechanic completely to the ground to the point that it’s kinda meaningless and all you got extra now is that you can pick whether you want more range damage, more dmg on first hit without stagger or more dmg after stagger. You can now stagger the crap out of anything with dual daggers easily. That has nothing to do with what was going on even in last iteration of stagger mechanic in beta sir.
It is not about some holy truth, you just play the game and see all the crap … it’s not like I’m pissed about this state of game because I read @Palesz complaining about it, it’s because I do play it and see it every single run.
I said that weaves will be dead in few weeks and those sure were dead in few weeks, plus loooot of veteran friends did not even buy em because they saw what a bugged and unbalanced mess it was already in beta.
We had huge struggle to get 4th guy to continue doing weaves with, and we were playing since day 1. It was like… either get hardcore premade full group and run thru it or you are screwed kinda thing.
And the people who pushed weaves were either few ultra hardcore groups who want to do everything or people like me who wanted the frame and did not know how bad the weaves are going to be. If there were no frames, I would drop it super fast as would many many other players.
And I’m not even talking about how there is a lot of cheaters on boards and then fake ranks, it’s not like so many people played the weaves it’s that they wanted to try it, got invited by someone at the top, and got high rank…
If you were to get number of players who actually did 1-120 full chain without cheating, lol that would be very low number.
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I absolutely love sarcasm. My favorite form of dry wit and it is indeed the most dry way of putting a point across. But you’ve got two livestreams, the Q&A, actually beta feedback still viewable in reddit, by people who actually contributed, as well as Hedge’s response on the topic when defending the discord and how those people hated the same things we hated, and yet these things were implemented anyways. If you don’t care to do the leg work, the summation of that livestream is that they’re willing to “weather the storm” on some decisions and take time to act on others (assuming it’s even important enough to prioritize), which means that giving feedback at all ever is a crapshoot on if it’s ever going to be acted on.
The “hey maybe they just gave you what you wanted but not how you wanted it” doesn’t exactly work my friend. We know what that is. It happens all the time in MMOs. Feedback resolutions differing from fan expectations is not a new and revolutionary concept.
That’s pretty much all that can be said about that. And if we’re going to be frank.
A beta’s worth of feedback
The steam forums
The subreddit
The livestream hecklers (which shame on them, but hey, that’s still information)
Internal data they can see in real time on just what the hell people are playing
and if all of that fails, MONTHS of discussion on the state of WoM on these official forums.
What kind of NEW and INSIGHTFUL data are they expecting to see here in a voluntary survey attached to a game that only staunch diehard fans even up on a daily basis. I don’t get the information that’s supposed to be gained here.
And like. I get it. You want to show that there is now a new willingness to take on fan feedback. Maybe it’s to streamline the information taken in so broad strokes can be made. Who knows. The entire process that goes towards community based data processing especially where FS is concerned is so alien to me that trying to understand it leaves me numb and lethargic.
Whatever the case, I’m not going to say no to pretending that they’re not pretending to care and filled out my 2 cents yesterday with the smallest, simplest, direct and to the point phrasing I could muster while being as respectful as humanly possible, (because god knows there’s enough stress already in the world) and had to go through the agonizing process of pulling teeth that was getting my compatriots to even install the game again so they could leave feedback. And most of them can’t be bothered. Sheesh.
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Say what you want about the feedback and FS’s reactions to it here and on other social channels, a survey linked in the game’s launcher does let FS get feedback from a much wider base. In here, Reddit, Steam and Discord there are a few dozen, or at best a couple hundred, active users giving their feedback, especially if you limit it to useful feedback instead of just messages containing “this sucks, change it”. In the survey, the amount of people reached is at least an order of magnitude greater. Thus, there is use for the survey.
What is actually done with the data is different altogether. The data gained from the survey (and all the different social channels) need to be looked at and conclusions drawn, then those conclusions need to be acted upon - and that could take quite a while yet, far longer than there is until Season 2 start. We haven’t been given good precedent, though, so we’ll see.
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This is exactly my problem.
Both FS and some people here expect the others to be willing to wait forever.
Time goes by, FS does who-knows-what since they don’t give a sh*t telling about anything, pushes new stuff on top of a broken system and expects us to give them money because they need to pay the bills, while we never experience a QUALITY, or near complete product. One always has to wait for fixes, play around bugs, broken and unbalanced parts of the game.
I don’t think that we will have anything good before S3 and by that time they will be forced to put another cherry on top, to beg for money again…
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You don’t need a survey. It’s obvious to anyone with any sense what to do.
The big problem and the growing concern for many people is that even if the solution was written in fire in the sky by Angels - Fatshark would still continue on their chosen path.
Season 2 <- it all hangs on this.
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Sorry for complaining, but could we have a survey where don’t need to have a Google account? Seems very strange to force people to create accounts with third parties just to participate in a survey.
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Which is initial for you? If you mean between WoM Beta 1 and Beta 2, then yes the stagger has been reduced greatly. If you mean between WoM Beta 2 and now, then no. There has been one minor change to stagger in the beginning which mostly adressed stagger on Legend but left most of the rest alone. Cataclysm has stayed unchanged as far as I remember.
I understand that people need to save face and have to say stuff like “It has been changed, bla bla.” But stagger is for most part identical to before. People just have gotten accustomed to it and understand that it is an improvement to the game. Same as the talent changes. Beginning with Beta 2 stagger has always just been “bonus damage” which covers the slight increase in health of the enemies more than necessary. And like I said, people just got accustomed to it.
The thing which was messy and still is partly, is the technical scale. But with more and more bugs reduced the reviews will start depecting the gameplay state of the game and that has improvement like the reviews. I know some people still claim hundreds of bugs each game. But at this point I just have to accept that some people play a different game. Are there bugs? Of course there are. They have to be fixed as fast as possible. Are they as numerous and game-breaking as some claim so heavily? No. So this has to be machine dependent that there are indeed some users more prone to bugs than others. But the recent increase in reviews imply that this group which is heavily troubled by bugs is decreasing, hence the increase in score. Still, they have to be fixed so that minor group is not left out. Problem here is that in order to fix a bug you need to be able to reproduce it. Due to the variation in PC gaming Fatshark could have fifty different testing devices and still be unable to reproduce the bugs of those people because they may have some software/hardware combintations which cause these specific troubles. So for FS it is identical to some bugs not even existing. All I can say is that I belong to the apparent lucky group. I havent seen crashes for the last hundred hours and I also see very few of other mention bugs. I had for a time problems with connection, phantom hits and such. But they disappeared after i changed from WLAN to cable. The issue has been completely on my side.
The problem about the accessibility for the Weaves is real and has to be adressed as fast as possible. The quickplay may help a little bit and giving first 40 Weaves direct access. But it will help only in the short run. For Season 3 and beyond they have to change the presentation of the Weaves and increase accessibilty more. Suggestions for this have been made and we will see what next year is bringing.
What I love is how people directly go full defense when they see a survey as they would fear that there so-called majority will not be visible there. All the forums no-matter where they are, are being dominated by maybe a few dozen people while the active usership is somewhere in the 50k+ range. So the survey is the most realistic chance to get a reasonable view for the overall census of the game.
I don’t like every decision FS makes. I have no need for a Versus mode and the nerf to Beastmen appeared unnecessary to me. Yet, I do not question the data they got from earlier surveys and their telemetric data.
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While your point is surprisingly accurate:
Average player count = ~2000
Assuming every player plays one hour a day that would at least need 48’000 players BUT:
The average used to be ~4000!
So if ~48’000 people quit don’t you think the results just might not be that accurate?
Only really showing this directly to every 2nd player approximately?
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My point is that there is nothing new in terms of feedback, there are the same issue as there were when the last in-launcher survey was running.
And I think this “we need more newbie” feedback, is not going to be too productive. Since as I argued before, newbies won’t be able to go into details and explain the issues.
Lets take the buffering issue as an example. Is some new player going to be able explain the issue ? No… same for the broken light to heavy chain attacking, they won’t have clue that it was much more fluid before and now it’s screwed up.
And it’s not just these more complex/non-obvious issues, it goes same way imho for other ones. Plus the new players have no frame of reference from past. And then you get posts/replies like “Dude this is fine, I mean I did not play before and have no idea how it worked, but now it looks fine to me” … well that kind of feedback is pointless since it’s like from guy who plays some OP build for few weeks and thinks everything is alright. While it isn’t at all.
And there are other issues with “newb-back”.
If they want to get this working, they really have to pull the head out of sand and fix all/most of the current issues that has been posted over and over.
“new” feedback for “new” players is not going to bring any miraculous new information that is going to turn everything around.
Currently we have situation where the house is completely in flames and guy outside is asking strangers passing by, what do they think about that, what should be done about that burning house. That’s just absurd.
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The building is on fire and anyone who is asked has said, repeatedly, to stop building an extension and put the fire out - but the guy outside is trying to distract you with a new wardrobe he’s got lined up and throws a bucket of water once in a blue moon. Sometimes the water is mixed with petrol and makes things worse.
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Man, this made me laugh. Eloquently stated.
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Survey Sucks.
I spent a good 20 or so minutes writing feedback only for it to reload somehow as if it was on some sort of timer.
Fatshark doesn’t want my feedback and I had plenty of constructive things to say that could’ve improved Winds of Magic but I guess they do not want that.
I give Ranald’s Middle Finger to this blasted Survey and WoM.
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I disagree with that so much. I disagree with that on a spiritual level with my soul crying out into the void, “Heck no.”
So, beta happens, stagger is heavy handed and something ridiculous like you deal -20% damage to an unstaggered enemy and needed to stagger an enemy first to get base damage. People defend this on the forums as an “elegant solution to the difficulty instead of just a simple number tweak”. It wasn’t, people hated the heck out of it so it got changed multiple times until the max bonus damage from stagger was nerfed (I say nerf because I think during one phase stagger bonus was 30/60 and now it’s 20/40) and the enemy numbers ended up getting tweaked anyway. Then they had to tweak weapons to have innate bonus damage in order to stay relevant (ranged, daggers, some others).
WoM gets released, with promises that Legend will feel the same as 1.6. And, you know, at level 35 and max power, it does. It feels like 1.6 legend, but without the ability to dodge, breakpoints, and the occasional Beastmen steamroll.
I’ve also seen people claim WoM Stagger was good for shields, but honestly it’s more to do with shields getting the buffs they needed since launch and everyone else no longer being allowed to dodge. Without Bulwark or any of the stagger stuff, those changes would still be fantastic for shield users.
Then you got the very late round of Beastmen nerfs so Gors can actually be staggered.
In Cata, you might as well not even care. Stagger damage doesn’t even actually matter. Sometimes a rat dies in 4 hits? Sometimes 5? Provided you see them die at all beneath the hyper density. Nothing, but personal skill and a good team matter in Cata.
It’s not an improvement at all, people just tolerate it now because we get that stagger is never, ever going away. FS spent who knows how many hours putting that elaborate mess of spaghetti code into the game and at this point it might be more work removing it without breaking the game even worse. It’s now V2’s legacy and probably the only game you will ever see a Stagger-for-damage core mechanic in because every other game before this increased difficulty in simpler ways that didn’t polarize the entire player base.
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Winds of Magic had plenty of time during the beta to get good feedback. Imo the beta should’ve been extended while Fatshark scrambled to make fixes to Beastmen, Cata, base game crafting, and especially Weaves which was terribly implemented.
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The “improved” stagger mechanic is the necessary excuse to warrant a low effort row of talents for all the careers.
Those talents annoy me but yeah it will stay this way.
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IMO it wasn’t stagger itself that’s the problem - the basic idea that you beat down their defense and then they take more damage is fine, and used in various games (aka, moments of opportunity).
The implementation is what sucked. They make stagger important, then make everything mega stagger resistant, then make them recover super fast so you don’t have time to hit them even when you do stagger them, and then ramp up hyperdensity so you can never hit the same target twice anyway. It’s like buying an electric car and then trying to fill the battery with petrol.
It should be simpler as well. Enemy stumbling = 50% more damage. No levels, no stagger strength, if you see a mob stumbling he gets hit harder. Done.
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This is called dispassionate ridicule.
Most games had you doing normal damage otherwise and great damage when you exploit mechanics. The only exception is hidden weakpoint bosses which are so consistently unfavored that they don’t bother making them anymore.
Well, let’s take Nioh since that’s topical now that the second beta is almost over right? Enemies at neutral? Normal damage. Decent kill speed. Enemies out of ki/stamina? Extra damage, faster kill time. But see stronger enemies with mechanics necessary to topple foes through exploitation don’t mesh well in a horde game where every enemy has to be toppled. Which is why staggers been retuned multiple time since it’s flawed inclusion.
At any point, no point bemoaning it now. It’s here to stay
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Well FS must tweak it to work much more intuitively (only one stagger lvl) or remove it, otherwise the fanbase will not be there to stay.
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What these gents already said.
I already filled out feedback during the WoM beta and wrote a lot of feedback here on the forums, many of my core complaints are still valid. As much as I’d like to think doing this new survey will make a difference, experience indicates otherwise.
As a result I don’t really want to spend the time filling out the new survey, it’s superfluous. They got the feedback they needed, they chose to ignore the majority and stuck to their guns. Fine, their choice.
You’re not wrong, but why are they being reintroduced all the time? Bugs that disappeared from VT2 returned with a vengeance initially in WoM, and many new ones were introduced too. Certainly, reception would have been a lot less negative without all those bugs, but many people were unhappy with the actual underlying design changes too.
I’m already dreading the bugs that’ll be released with the next update when in reality that should be the least of my concerns as a player. And no, I don’t expect entirely bug-free updates, many bugs even get a laugh out of me, but WoM felt completely unfinished at first, it reminded me of early launch. And at launch I mostly-ignored the bug annoyances as I loved VT2’s underlying gameplay, having it end up back in that state again however.
I genuinely feel sorry for Hedge and Julia having to deal with all the backlash.
I don’t doubt the data they got is good, but that doesn’t automatically mean FS makes the best decisions based on that data. It’s quite easy to draw bad conclusions from good data, especially when things like cause/effect get mixed up, or FS’s case, I get the impression they don’t understand a lot of the appeal of base VT2, else WoM wouldn’t have given us: scripted, non-random weaves, more grind, useless talents (don’t get me wrong, I liked the WoM talent tweaks overall, but a number still stand out as useless), and the changes to combat.
For reference (from SteamCharts, which takes the data provided by the Statistics page on the Steam store):
Unless you have any better data.
You need to take a look in the mirror and realise it is you who is in denial, not us. But I guess that’s why you leveled the accusation we’re afraid the majority don’t concur, projection.
If you liked WoM great, but don’t pretend the majority did.
If you, FS or anyone else can point to actual evidence the majority like where WoM went (despite feedback, reviews and, more importantly, dwindling player numbers) I’ll concede I was wrong, but you can’t can you?
At this point, in my eyes, VT2 hinges upon S2 to provide longevity to the game. I’d be content with just getting way less new bugs, having weaker talents looked at/reworked, gradually getting new weapons/enemy variants over time and (most importantly) new maps. Hell, being an avid PvPer too, I actually want versus, but first FS need to get the actual PvE Vermintide back in order.
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