Variability of builds (psyker edition)

No its not. I rely on my premade group - we certainly not rely on psykers cdr talent (in terms of cd of book or voc). Because veteran and zealot can sustain VERY fast cd by themselfs.

The only need in cd reduction is psyker itself, because this node is only option to reduse it GUARANTEE. U may tell me there is keystone, especially that one that synergises with soulblaze kills, but it depends purely on random.

U can obtain 6 warp charges in seconds, on other battle u obtain 1 from bunch of enemies. And i need to note u dont really see how many charges u have (due to long persist bug)

Example of killin bunch of elite is not valuable, because we have ogryns now - they can do this better and faster.

Yes, they are. But the problem is: they dont provides us another option. An equal one.

I dont believe that we may obtain same strong nodes, so my point is: if we have node that u clearly need to take - dont place it in places that limitates every other builds.

That’s the problem
 my opinion is that you should never have node that « u clearly need to take ». If the talent is as strong as this, it has to be nerfed or designed differently.
But sure, it should not stay as is. For example IoD of zealot is a mandatory talent. I ask that it is nerfed and that Martyr’s purpose being changed. The current situation, where you should always take IoD except if you go shroudfield (but you still have a reason to take it) is absolutely bad for multiple reasons.

So yes it has to be nerfed, especially if it is the culprit why the psyker deals a lot more damages than other classes.

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Cant agree with that. Because most dmg on havoc u do to regular horde enemies.

Psyker cant do much dmg to bosses (compare to ogryn or veteran, or zealot).

Only purpose of psyker existance is horde clearer, battlefield improve by bubblemaker.

Its bad in my eyes.

Read until that


Aura as well as keystone.

simply removing the group aspect baselining it like ogryn 100% cdr for 3s and restructuring tree damage would be a nerf / buff.

Also not the longest CDs either
 some of the shortest.

I’d expect such tree reworks to be coming but won’t make havok balanced in the meantime.

Psyker has some of the best talent reach ability of talents with the big drawback of unreachable passives after blitz and low unique passive nodes compared to other classes
 tho still more than zealot.

If you change 1 talent the so called mandatory ones will shift

Soul Drinker:Critical hits cause 1 stack of soul blaze, killing an enemy with or under the effects of soulblaze (or would be under the effects if alive) grants 1% critical hit chance for 5s stacks 10 times.**

What if a whole tree?

you don’t need assail if you play with purgatus or voidstrike

brain burst is the best bliz

I agree with the sentiment stated by OP that Perilous Combustion (killing an elite or specialist spreads 3 soulblaze stacks to nearby enemies) and Psykinetic’s Aura (Coherency-wide 4% cd reduction on elite/specialist kills) are too strong for their placement. Builds that don’t pick these talents are simply not competitive in terms of overall strength or utility, so the talent tree layout should be altered so these talents are more accessible to all builds.

I don’t agree with the sentiment they should be nerfed, at least not without psyker recieving compensatory buffs to survivability and utility in other ways. And not just in terms of buffing alternative talents like mind in motion ormalefic momentum. Talents elsewhere should then be buffed, or weapon blessings added or buffed to a host of weapons, to compensate for the loss of power these talents brings to the class. This actually seems a viable alternative now that a I think about it, that would make these talents less obligatory.

Speaking mostly of my experience with Havoc +30 games, what I consistently see ignored in threads like these where some claim psyker is overpowered because of their damage potential with venting shriek and inferno staff, is that psyker play has a substantially smaller margin for error, so it simply puts a larger demand on the player to keep up that damage while having great situational awareness and movement, to avoid getting trapped in gunner killboxes, or destroyed by massing melee enemies.

First of all venting shriek play excludes taking bubble, so at higher difficulties you might not even get invited for a lot of Havoc games, and it is substantially harder to stay alive at Havoc +30 without bubble than without shriek.

It is as if these people define class performance entirely by the damage number on the scoreboard and do not consider what it takes in terms of player effort, and the frequency of player deaths by players who try to run with these builds at these difficulties.

On another note, Voidblast and Voidstrike staves are abysmal at Havoc +30. It’s not just that they are not doing on-par damage with inferno, which I don’t see why they necessarily should do, since again the game is about more than just pure damage potential. But they certainly lack in the sort of utility they should have to be competitive alternatives to inferno.

Both of them charge way too slowly. And I mean something perhaps up to 50% faster charge is required to bring them up in viability at the highest difficulties. They only do enough damage and stagger to be somewhat useful at max charge level, but it takes waaay too long to charge them to that level, so you are in risk of getting slaughtered by massing enemies in between every charged 2ndary fire.

Even worse for voidblast in particular is how it interacts with terrain. Terrain floor architecture is way too detailed and uneven in many places, so you can often find yourself making blasts that disappear into small crevices in the terrain, doing no damage to enemies where you attempt to aim the circle. There just isn’t the sort of time on high difficulties you need to sit there and try to make small adjustments to aim to make sure the blast isn’t disappearing under the ground.
Since changing this would either require a total redesign of level architechture, or the mechanics of how the staff interacts with terrain in the first place, my guess is this will NEVER get fixed, and Voidblast is consigned to being this pathetic item of curiosity you can pull off on an auric level here or there for the lulz if you’re a total sweatlord.

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Zealot and Ogryns CDR talents got nerfed. Only Vet and Psyker has them still. I agree with you, nerf them all, that includes Psykers, who has the most OP version of it.

Again, people feel forced to pick this talent because it’s busted OP. If you want more variety, the solution to this isn’t giving them the talent for free.

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Agreed. There are alternative ways of providing the strength given by the two talents, also reducing it’s overall power, while still providing a similar sort of strength-that-scales-with-degree-of-elite/special-resistance to all the talents in the tier.

Suppose you changed Psykinetic’s Aura so it did something else, but also spread the effects of current Psykinetic’s Aura out over all four talents in the same tier. So rather than having that one talent give 4% CDR for every elite/special kill for every1 in coherency, you instead give 1% CDR to all to wildfire, and 1% CDR to all to Psykinetic’s Aura, and 1% CDR to all Mind in Motion, and 1% CDR to all to Malefic momentum.

That way you can achieve 2% CDR to all, at max, rather than 4% now, and all builds can then access those 2% in principle. Then give some sort of small utility or survivability buff to Psykinetic’s Aura, and either MiM or MM (so you can access that same utility from the other side) to compensate for the nerf to Psykinetic’s Aura.

I don’t agree with the crying over dmg potential from inferno+wildfire+venting shriek and all the rest. It comes at a cost of survivability that becomes particularly magnified at higher difficulties. You shouldn’t just pretend these difficulties don’t exist. The whole idea that one particular difficulty level should be the focus point of balancing class abilities is a total non-sequitur.

Heck, a 3rd alternative is to remove the talent entirely and change it to do something else completely.

Then instead just give each class 1% CDR from elite/special kills for all allies in coherency as part of base coherency effect. Now overall group power level stays the same, all classes contribute the effect, and nobody is made any weaker at any particular difficulty.

Part of the biggest balance problem is these CDR nodes on elite kills and any talents that relies on killing elite.
This is what made players pick auric
 just because there was a lot of elite. I will shock a lot here, but regular damnation can be easier because there is less special, but everything else is making it harder than auric, because you have not the possiblity to spam kill elites.

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I would dispute the claim that regular damnation is in any way harder than Auric Maelstrom or Havoc games. I simply don’t buy that.

I just say that all these talents that trigger on elites/specials, is what make Auric not really more difficult.
You remove that, Auric becomes a true difficult game mode.

And you don’t have that in regular damnation.

As I said: “regular damnation can be easier because there is less special”

That’s the only point that makes it more difficult. And if you check at conditions descriptions you will see that it is around specials.

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I might go as far as remove all CDR down to curios and balance them as what they should be awesome cooldowns with great benefits at opportune times and not spam able power tricks in your rotation.

right now the lower CDR rates are a compromise to the addicted CD spammers.

Very true and the numbers agree.

Zealot
Good Balance - 25% TDR
Enduring Faith - 50% TDR
Shield of Contempt - 60% TDR
Until Death - 100% DR
Stalwart - 25% TDR

Ogryn
Focused Fighter - 20% MDR
Can’t Hit Me Again - 20% DR
Pumped Up - 15% DR
For Lil Uns - 25% TDR
Wont Give In - 20% DR
No Hurting Friends - 10% TDR
Don’t Feel A Thing - 12% TDR
Feel No Pain - 25% DR

Veteran
Exhilarating Takedown - 30% TDR
Iron Will - 50% TDR

Psyker
Endurance - 20% TDR
One With the Warp - 33% TDR
Empathic Evasion - 100% RDR (Only proccs on Crits, only for 1s that said with Recon Las and Headhunter there’s an argument to be made it’s busted.)

Still, Soulblaze is too strong against armor.

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Just to add you can have 100% uptime with this with inferno staff, very easily, it crits a lot. Probably the angle I would choose to nerf it, I’m not sure why the flamethrower staff gets to dip into all crit talents. Should have less crit or be incapable of critting (the other angle of course being no more rending for dot stacks, that stuff is silly)

Not quite.

You can have good uptime with it if you are constantly provided targets to stream fire into and otherwise work to maintain high peril (and it will certainly save your life many times over when you do this), but even then you will get periods with little to no crits and take ranged dmg. For one thing you also do have to move and advance on the map, and you can’t run and channel fire at the same time so you unavoidably will experience periods of higher vulnerability for that reason alone.

Even then I have seen quite a number of times with >60% peril, actively streaming fire into balls of shotgunners, and I still experience buckshot going through here or there in between crits.

Needing a target in range is fair (but also not a problem on havoc) but it really is 99% uptime straight up. There are no gaps other than quick vents during which you can slide, and after standing in the psykhanium trying it for ~5 mins now I had it fail to keep up 100% uptime once. Mind it dropped off for a split second there and came right back. Outside of that non stop uptime, slide, vent, near 100% evasion rate while actively putting out the maximum amount of staff power.
I just dont think this staff having this much easy to achieve ranged immunity is justified. Isn’t that supposed to be its weakness? Does the flamethrower aoe staff that destroys everything in medium range with no target cap and extreme dot damage stacking up to 31 dot stacks with perilous combustion REALLY need to also rapid fire crit and make you functionally immune to ranged damage?

I don’t think your described psykanium test is a good indicator of how this works out in actual games.

It seems to me it’s weakness is distance, crushers, and being forced to move a lot so you can’t continously stream 2ndary fire. Throw some occasional muties, crushers, and bombers in the mix and your uptime quickly starts to drop off.

It’s one of those is it strictly needed for some players to succeed-questions? Of course not. But what would be the consequences if you removed it? Can’t I just ask the reverse, does it need to be removed?

Does it somehow ruin a lot of the game experience of most players, or otherwise trivialize encounters intended to be much more difficult?