Obviously why I never used Deimos…
More seriously, I really love obscurus. Illisi is great on horde management, but obscurus is more versatile.
This is common realisation by now that Fatshark loves introducing game mechanics, which then get overridden by blessings, weapon characteristics, talents etc.
Uncanny, Agile, Handcannon, cleave values on some weapons going from mid to infinite, heat/peril mechanics which can be safely ignored, critical heat/peril safety nets, move tech on knives, pre-nerf infinite dodges on force swords.
I’m fine with say, Can Opener applying brittleness to the target you hit. It requires you to get in close and use a weapon that cannot block and use its stab on a single target to make your bullets not do crap damage on crushers, all at the cost of more general-use blessings.
It seems you are focused on trying out things in psykanium for your own performance. When in realityt it’s 4 players using rend and brittleness from different sources.
With cleave it depends on mass. Being able to cleave through infinite ammount of crushers for example would be broken and it also depends on animations, like for vertical and pokes - yes, cleave shouldn’t be high. With rend you don’t have all that things behind.
Unconditional big damage boosts vs everything that asks nothing from the player - bad, not fun. Depends on enemy armor value tho, if you can stack such damage buffs to be able killing crushers effortless using knife it’s not different from rend.
Bruh, i already unswered that stuff about Uncanny. You keep replying my statements about rend on general, than push conversation again towards Uncanny. If you have last word syndrome then so be it. We have fundamental disagreement for what fun and depth are.
But pls don’t reply to me if you want to be obnoxious about Uncanny cause i said already i don’t think it needs nerf yet (probably will be when they nerf DS base damage and Uncanny will bring it back to crusher delter).
No? Never said that. In fact i said the opposite about force swords.
You stuck in “mah illisi uncanny” loop. While i addresed why i don’t like rend, and what i think about Uncanny. If it’s still not clear to you, pls reread the thread.
No.
We are in a thread that says „uncanny needs to be nerfed“.
And i am stuck in a loop of
- me asking, which weapon becomes too strong in what regard due to uncanny strike
- someone responding to me, saying something that does not contain an answer to that question
- me wondering, why the blessing should be nerfed , if nobody can provide the information, which weapon is too strong in what regard due to uncanny strike
Until someone can answer that question, every comment asking for the nerf of uncanny, is not to be taken seriuously, or should simply be ignored.
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Even more, you shouldn’t ask me, cause i said i don’t think rend should exist in the first place (atleast in the current design). Ask someone else.
Hmmm… have to say it.
I rarely use brittleness on my weapons. And rending is personal (and I rarely use it also, except combat blade and only the blessing ruthless backstab).
From my experience, for monstrosities, krak grenade are what kill them fast.
For crushers, there are various weapons… but none where uncanny is needed or will change the output.
For all others, rending will help, but is not something that will change the output and is far from mandatory.
After reading all the exchanges here, I believe that Flawless is right.
The only talent I can find where rending will change everything for a weapon is onslaught with a columnus IAG (but here, not uncanny strike).
Thank you for your explanation. I thought with US4’s 120% rending I was downgrading carapace to flak and reducing flak another 20% on top of that.
While rending is persoanl it’s different when you are poking crushers or maulers with deimos in psykanium and when 4 players focusing blobs at the same time knocking them on the floor with nades, trauma, charge or stunlocking with relic or smite, etc. While some 10% can be seen as insignifficant, there another 10% your teammate can run.
At shis point it’s just hard to calculate how fast it takes to kill crushers or maulers blob without anyone using all that stuff vs everyone runs some sort of rend.
Rending is personal. So it gives no bonus to others teammates.
Brittleness is, at contrary, a team shared bonus.
With veteran you have a way to apply it on melee critical hits (most useless bonus if you ask me).
With others, I see it more on ogryns weapons… and other weapons where there are a lot of better blessing to pick
Again, I am not sure a lot of us use these blessings…
So, when you point 4 players applying debuff everywhere and on everything… my opinion is that it does not describe the reality.
Yes? Again, it doesn’t matter when 4 players has antiarmor potential and crowd control presented at the same time, it just works in synergy. How often do you deal with blob of armored elites alone? Not that often. You hit a crusher with your weapon that has rend, and some another player already damaged him with his rend too. All in all despite your rend being personal it buffs team damage output heavily when everyone runs it.
He has free 10% rend in the middle branch, slap bolter with shattering impact above. Ogryn with shattering impact on rumbler and Dominate - gg wp crushers. And it’s only two.
Well at this point it’s a speculation we can’t verify.
Problem again… I rarely use such weapon. Actually on the vet I use a headhunter that has not rending…
Only with the revolver I use a blessing that has rending.
Most of the time, I use either the power sword or the sapper shovel for such enemy
On my zealot, I actually use the achlys combat axe. BM + decapitator or BM + thrust.
I can use the evis (shred + perfect strike)
Duelling sword? agile + riposte.
On Ogryn, I use actually a pickaxe (as always) karsolas with Slow and Steady and thrust. Second pickaxe use confident strike + headtaker.
On psyker I use an obscurus… again not uncanny. Void strike… no uncanny.
I have said it. My uses of rending / brittleness mechanics are:
- onslaught and/or exploit weakness on veteran
- revolver (hand cannon)
- Ruthless Backstab for combat blade (rare, I prefer precognition + rispote)
- On vet ONLY: Combat blade MK IV with mercy killer + uncanny strike
- when I use a ripper gun on my ogryn (but I have not in the past 2 months)
So, I repeat, that your hypothesis that is all the team, so 4 players. use rending is not my own experience… considering how rarely I use rending / brittleness.
This one, true. I often take it.
I doubt it changes anything as… rending is personal (so it does not permit someone else to deal more damages)
When I say it is personal, I just deny the synergy you describe. There is no synergy. It exists only for brittleness. And I am not sure a lot of players use brittleness mechanic
However, maybe I miss something by not using brittleness mechanic…
There is, with crowd control.
When you testing weapons in psykanium you think “damn it takes too much hits to kill crusher”
But in reality you have situations when someone cheaped crushers hp already by gun boosted with rending, then someone knocked crushers on the floor, cheaping their hp more and you add your damage above. It doesn’t matter it’s a personal buff, cause everone’s damage can be boosted by rend. Everyone just throwing nades, projectiles, aoes, etc and thing dies. And on top of that duplicated classes with the same versatile anti everything build. It ends up being a game where you have 4 jack of all trades and also masters of specifics. A complete mess.
If the game was balanced towards that anti armor should be a real build with downsides. So for example 2 people clearing hordes and specials and 2 removing crushers, and then one of your anti armor player get incapacitated - well it will lead to your team being crippled in elite removing task and you have challenge spike now git gut. In that case having personal rend would be a different thing. And also people probably would be more cooperative, cause it’s matter to save you anti-thing teammte to win. It doesn’t matter when everyone can handle everything.
It’s too strong compared to other blessings. Does it make Dueling Sword or Combat Blade overpowered? No, they already are. It makes them abhorrent.
Those are not the worst offenders, but that’s because Force Swords have one of the strongest selections of blessings there are in the game. Look at Infantry Autoguns for comparison, it’s pathetic. It should be nerfed here for the sake of consistency, and Force Swords would not lose much. I could see good argumentation convincing me on this point, though.
Sounds reasonable.
No, but those weapons that are already good at it become suddenly so proficient that they trivialize Crushers and Maulers entirely. 1-2 less hits don’t sound that good… unless the weapon takes 3-4 hits, in which case it’s amazing. No other blessing can compete with that kind of Mauler/Crusher killing power, as those few that could increase your DPS do not have the uptime and reliability of Uncanny Strike. Precognition, for example, can provide similar amount of damage against Crushers/Maulers, but only on crits (without those the DPS is lower than Uncanny Strike) and only after dodge so if they don’t actively target you it won’t do anything at all. Uncanny Strike? Both offense and defense, Rending works on crits as well as weakspot hits, and even body shots should you miss a strike. Even DoTs.
I wouldn’t nerf Rending, I would nerf Uncanny Strike specifically. See the title of the post? No? Look again.
The issue is that it isn’t weak, and I’ll get to that in a moment. Just so you know - Penetration (and by extension, Rending) scales multiplicatively with all other bonuses.
Sure, they do. Roughly the same increase as Uncanny Strike does in most cases, since they don’t stack multiplicatively and Uncanny Strike does. But Uncanny Strike provides extreme bonuses against the most tanky enemies in the game, while the other blessings such as Mercy Killer, Slaughterer or Headtaker don’t - the increase in damage from those is the same for Carapace as it is for Maniac.
Who says it’s an issue? That example was simply used to falsify the statement of whoever I was responding to. That’s the second time you’re debating your assumptions rather than what I actually said.
Who says that Uncanny Strike makes any of the four weapon families overpowered? The blessing is overpowered because it renders all other sources of Rending irrelevant, and in fact provides so much damage against almost every kind of target in the game it’s meta-defining.
Here, have an example. I don’t like this build, but it is hard to disagree that it’s extremely potent. And sure enough, Uncanny Strike plays a major role here. I don’t think it’s a mystery to anyone who ever tried it.
Also it’s your own assumptions again. Just to hammer in that point, I neither said nor think that any weapon that is balanced without Uncanny Strike becomes overpowered with it. There is one caveat to this statement, and it’s in my last reply. I won’t be repeating myself.
Because they have nerfed other blessings that were weaker deeming them to be overpowered, because Brittleness is capped at 40% as it would be deemed to strong otherwise despite being a weaker version of Rending (with one exception of Rending Shockwave).
Aside from the obvious “it is what I want right now so don’t nerf my overpowered toys”, what makes you reject this simple reasoning here? Just joking, I don’t actually care.
No, I just assume here that the effects on Flak/Carapace are intended as the effect against Maniac and Unyielding is puzzling to say the least.
You’ve finally asked me for clarification instead of just assuming what suits you and proceeding based on that, colour me impressed.
I don’t know, ask Fatshark. How did Punishment make all other sources of Impact irrelevant? That’s their reasoning for nerfing it after all.
To quote you: “What? Aside from the obvious „it is what i want, so i will claim that it is what they should want“, what is the actual reasoning here?”
Because you’re dead wrong, aside from one exception of Rending Shockwave, Brittleness is just a worse version of Rending. Why so? Oh that is actually a more complex issue, but it boils down to the fact that in most cases no one aside from the player inflicting it will utilize it well, and if you eliminate the teammates from the equation (and you can do that in most cases) then Rending is just straight up better than Brittleness. I hope that is enough of an explanation to you since I’m not gonna elaborate further.
And why shouldn’t it be? This is an outlier. And even if no weapon should be that bad against Carapace, then why not just buff the base scaling instead of forcing you to rely on blessing?
Aside from Mk I Sapper Shovel and Illisi Force Sword, all the weapons with access to Uncanny Strike can absolutely deal with Crushers without any Rending at all. Ever tried Deimos Force Sword, or Mk III Shovel? They have no trouble dealing with Crushers. If Uncanny Strike is so insubstantial, then how is that even a meaninful nerf, not to even mention “nerf bat”?
Why Uncanny Strike gives you more damage than you might think
Bonuses such as Headtaker, Slaughterer, Precognition - whatever adds % damage/strength -stacks additively with each other. Uncanny Strike gives you Rending though, and Rending stacks multiplicatively with those.
For example, if you had Slaughterer and Executor fully stacked, they would provide +70% Strength combined (40% Slaughterer, 30% Executor). If you swap out Executor for Uncanny Strike instead, and assuming that you have 100% base scaling against target in question, the Uncanny Strike will provide 25% damage increase (since the additional 100% Rending will be divided by 4 since it’s over 100%). So Slaughterer + Uncanny Strike should give you a combined bonus of 65%, which is less than if you used Executor instead of Uncanny Strike, right?
Wrong. Since Rending stacks multiplicatively, instead of 100% + 40% + 25%, it will be (100% + 40%) * 125% = 175%.
So the damage bonus that Uncanny Strike provides you with is usually just as poweful as dedicated % damage/strength blessings, and that is aside from it’s nigh-unique ability to affect DoTs and extreme damage bonus to Carapace/Flak.
Expect no further replies from me. I believe that given sufficient time I could convince you to my viewpoint, but looking at the rate of your exchange in this thread it becomes brutally apparent that I simply do not have the life to undertake an argument with someone as terminally online. I’d also apologize for my disrespectful tone of this reply, but since you were the one to start I consider it warranted.
Based on what?
Let‘s say that is true.
How about force swords and shovels?
Two of the three forceswords are basically not affected by the blessing (in regard to the tankier enemies).
And the one that is affected, is still not good against carapace and other tanky elites, even with the blessing.
The illisi still takes a ton of hits to kill a crushers (with headshots).
So the reason why the blessing is balanced on force swords, might have something to do with the actual effect of the blessing on them. It is not only because force swords have many other strong damage blessing options.
Well… you definitely do not mean force swords and shovels.
Maybe no other individual blessing has as much potential to increase crusher damage. But in reality, the actual effect of uncanny is not very big.
Regarding dps against anything else than crushers, it is a pretty damn bad blessing.
Let me remind you of the existence of decimator and thrust, which are both easier to activate than uncanny strike, and vastly more powerful almost every single time.
Gratulations. You nitpicked my statement, instead of answering the question.
It is quite clear what i meant though, is it not?
You are just attacking me here, while not addressing my point at all.
You conveniently ignored the three lines above, where i proved your previous statement a blatant lie.
Because having the need to repeatedly headshot an enemy in order to deal better armor damage, is not the same as generally dealing better armor damage.
Also, having the choice to pick a blessing for better armor dmg vs a different blessing for better overall dmg.
Also, interactions of rending blessings with other damage sources.
Why are you now telling me, what i have already said multiple times in this thread?
This is the argument that i made, pointing out that this blessing does in no way trivialize crushers.
It is insubstantial for 2/3 of the swords and 2/3 shovels.
It would be a meaningful nerf for the 1 sword and 1 shovel that basically can not deal with carapace, without the blessing.
I am not debating my assumptions.
I am asking, if something is supposed to be an issue.
Because it is one of, if not the strongest example of uncanny providing value. So if the strongest effect of uncanny is not an issue, why would you want to nerf it across all weapons?
Dude…
The blessing is available for 4 weapon families in the whole game.
How is it overpowered, when it makes additional sources of rending/brittleness irrelevant FOR THOSE SPECIFIC WEAPONS, but not for anything else?
And again, it is so meta defining that most of the weapons that have access to this blessing, do not even want to use it… Even according to yourself.
Brittleness (as i already explained) affects ALL damage from ANYONE.
Of course it does not reduce armor as much as rending does, since rending is limited to a few weapons.
Which weapon that has access to uncanny, is overpowered? Aside from the duelling swords?
What kind of bs arguments are you trying to make here?
If your viewpoint is reasonable, you do not need a lot of time.
You just need a sound argument, but it seems that you do not have one.
If that is your problem, why not simply nerf the dmg bonus that rending provides past the 100% armor penetration?
Holy jesus…
I wish the forum required users to pass an IQ test, before they are allowed to post.
Still, nobody has answered the question:
Which weapon becomes too strong in what regard due to uncanny strike?
(if the question has been answered, i must have overlooked it. Please someone answer the question, or cite the answer)
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uncanny strike should be given to tac axes too
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At least on combat blade and dueling sword, uncanny strike probably shouldn’t even exist. The fact that those weapons don’t actually need it to deal with armored targets only goes to demonstrate the utterly insane base damage they dish out in the first place (esp. vs carapace, but also in general).
This discussion isn’t about frequency of use, it’s about opportunity cost. No one wants to haul around a thunder hammer when you can equip what looks like a large butter knife and get top tier performance across the board (dmg vs armor, mobility, dodges, etc). The fact that uncanny strike currently isn’t needed to achieve this doesn’t suddenly make handing out large amounts of easily accessible rending a good idea.
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Correct.
But the offenders do not even need the blessing in the first place.
So arguing for the nerf of the blessing, based on weapons that have access to it, but do not even need it to delete armor, is madness.
and that’s on top of all the bonuses against crushers, maulers, monstrosities and everything else lol
lol with how much life you’ve wasted arguing on the internet you should know better
well, unless the entire world is stubborn and indoctrinated except you, you’re objective unbiased and ready to change your mind lmao. so ready in fact you start the discussion with mocking. why? it’s simple, if the argument was reasonable then you would have already changed your mind before the discussion started so obviously whoever you’re talking with must be wrong and you’re in the right to be a jerk from the get-go xD
i wish it required users to have ever won a match above malice lmao. whether we used your solution or mine, you wouldn’t be here so I’d be fine with both
nice response time btw. go touch some grass, it really doesn’t hurt.
So it really is entirely about the duelling sword being overpowered?
If this is your reason for opening this thread, you should probably suggest nerfing the duelling sword, nerfing the blessing for the sword, or removing the blessing from the sword.
What does this have to do with shovels and force swords?
Maybe you should reduce the insult/information ratio in your posts btw.