Trusting Fatshark with Warhammer 40,000: Darktide

If Fatshark upset you this much then why are you here?

If you think you can do better then start your own gaming company or apply to Fatshark.

Otherwise, you’re only making yourself miserable. If you don’t want to buy Darktide then don’t.

No one here is forcing you to buy it.

You choose to be here.
You choose to be miserable.
You choose to not have faith in a company that gave you thousands of hours of enjoyment.

All you have to do if you’re upset is to just walk away. Don’t worry @Unskinner the world will keep spinning.

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Yeah it’s like you absolutely have to be a chef cook to understand if something tastes bad, went bad, or was cooked badly. Please, reserve your cliche argument spouting for other threads at least not started by a member of your beloved dev company. At least everyone around here except for you are trying to be sincere and give honest feedback instead of just trolling.

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I’m here because I love Vermintide as a game, as probably everyone else here does. I’m just saying, like everyone else, what I think of the current state of the game and why my trust in FatShark as a developer is no longer at 100% in one place or another. Well, maybe my way of expression is not always the nicest, please excuse me that I don’t think much of euphemism, but I’m also just trying to point out that something is going wrong. Maybe this is unnecessary at this point, because a thread like this is certainly not created without reason, but to make any comparisons with other games and to urge other users based on their opinion to opt out of the community is just as unnecessary.

As far as I know, a forum is meant for mutual exchange of opinions. Maybe you should start looking at posts from other users objectively and not consider every negative post as a personal attack.

I decided to be here.
I am doing great.
And even though I have spent thousands of hours in this game, I can still say that not everything runs smoothly. That’s totally ok, I’m writing my opinion here because I think there’s room for improvement, not because I’ve given up on the game and the developer and just go my own way.

Please excuse this off-topic dispute, I’ll stop at this point.

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Yeah, I don’t doubt base Darktide will be great, as with VT2, but I’m more concerned about long-term support + bug squashing.

And I do hope it doesn’t end up too much like VT2. Memes about how having a WH40k VT2 would be great aside, I really do hope FS give as much love to ranged weapons in this game as they did to melee in VT2. I wouldn’t mind the melee combat being like VT2’s, but if the ranged combat is like VT2, I’m going to stick with VT2.

To me the focus should be on ranged weapons with a hefty chunk of melee, kinda VT2’s split but reversed, e.g. 60% ranged 40% melee and some careers/weapons that perhaps turn that on its head - and the odd moment where you run out of ammo and have no choice which is ironically a bit lacking in VT2. (On a tangential note I’d like if the ogryn’s massive stature/strength are actually reflected in his melee attacks and that it won’t be purely cosmetic, but that won’t make or break the game for me as he’s only one character.)

Basically: for me, if it feels like VT2 reskinned in 40k, I’ll stick with VT2; if it feels like 40k but with VT2 melee, then by the emprah I’m interested. But I fear as with VT2 the game will have a great launch and then months of nothing or at most very little in the way of new content, not to mention bugs being reintroduced way, way down the line.

Beyond that, I agree with @OrsonMaxwell’s points. And I’d like to add, please find a way to not have callouts interrupt dialogue, it’s a minor detail yes, but it was annoying as hell in VT2 when the game had absolutely amazing voice acting and a cast we wanted to get to know more about.

I’m more than happy to be proven wrong, I’d love to be proven wrong, but this is how I feel about it.

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I personally enjoy Vermintide 2. Played it more than V1, and with about 1000+ hours in the game, I think I can echo that some problems exist. Hookrats dragging you through the ground, Maulers, if I have the correct name for the fellows with armor on their head but not their body, hitting you when you stand behind them, etc.

These are errors or little unintended borks in the code can be handled, or gotten used to. Poked fun at or remembered in a ‘Oh my god that actually happened’ way.

What I really, really don’t like, is part of the way Fatshark has handled things. For example, if you recall the ‘skating’ enemies? At some point, that was actually fixed. Enemies no longer skated, tracking you 10+ feet away to home in on you in a single, janky motion.

But, people complained that made the game easier. And no doubt it did. Because you could actually dodge past their attacks when you hit the ‘dodge’ button, and they would continue their swing until the animation was complete. Then, Fatshark decided to reintroduce these ‘skating’ attacks, by causing the enemies to lock on, and extended the animation in a long and horrible-looking fashion, unless you dodge during a particular ‘window’ in the attack, with the timing growing more precise the higher the difficulty. By itself, the fix is not a problem. That they kept the immersion-breaking slide in, is.

In Darktide, please do not do this. Come up with actual tailored combat animations, a spring attack, or throwing their weapon at you if you are out of range, or something. Just not a repeat of the buggy skating animation.


I’m sure we all remember the roadmap. I hope Fatshark does not make that same mistake of putting down features that they cannot reasonably achieve. Have it be a pleasant surprise, if you must. People love excellent features that are released and working, even if you didn’t tell them beforehand you were going to do it. Base what you put out on what you have an active route for, instead of vague planning.


Sanctioned Mods. If you are going to keep allowing Mods in Darktide, please do not repeat what has been done in V2, with initial waves of sanctioning mods, and then a complete and total silence with no sign or further mods being even looked at for Sanctioning.

Have someone do a once-per month short workshop, like you did with the Brettonian Longsword. Have them go through a few new mods, and explain/show why they are suitable or not. Give us feedback, interaction. SHOW something being done, instead of just telling us ‘things are progressing’.


My last thing is, please, please, PLEASE, do not forget the improvements you made in the last game that were well-received. V1 had the Bounty-Board, which people liked for the ability to get the things they wanted, without relying completely on random chance.

In V2, people had many Veteran-quality items with excessive duplicates, but perhaps not the weapon-type they wanted. Red-Dust from salvaging those was put in, and that allows both emptying the limited inventory of excess Reds, as well as improving weapons to Veteran-quality for the ability scores, if not the Skins.

Don’t forget what WORKED. Do not start entirely fresh, deciding not to take note of the past. Take the good improvements from previous games and KEEP them in the new one, in some incarnation.

As I’ve said, I do genuinely enjoy the game. I apply for betas, even if I’ve not always been accepted. I love the atmosphere Fatshark has created in the Warhammer Fantasy universe, and I hope they can do the same for 40k.

EDIT;

And it completely skipped my mind.

Version Control. You’ve got to do something about that, where developers are working with months-old code and bugs that get reintroduced into newer versions because of it. You remember when the players and Devs were playing two separate versions of the game, because there was an entire SYSTEM that wasn’t working for the players, but was for the developers.

I don’t exactly know how you can fix a disconnect that massive, but please find a way.

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Can’t see the forest for all the trees.

It actually happens quite often with most game developers especially ones where different teams from around the world on working on small parts of the same game.

One scenario is the game was updated and each team gets a particular task for that updated game version. While these teams are working on their particular task, the game version gets updated again but doesn’t get sent to the other teams due to miscommunication or because someone forgot.

It’s not an excuse but even AAA gaming companies have this issue. Things may seem slow moving for us but are actually moving quite fast for the developers especially if they have separate teams for the same game.

Same thing happens all the time at most jobs and especially at international companies. For example, my washing machine was one that was recalled in 2019 but I never got a letter saying it was recalled and didn’t even realize it was a problem until the top exploded. That same washing machine had issues in development which one team knew about but didn’t tell the other people and it ended up getting pushed to the market. Is it right? No, but it happens because people are not perfect and make mistakes and sometimes the flow of information doesn’t get to where it needs to go.

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Don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been addressed in this thread. Yes I absolutely trust FS with the lore, setting, atmosphere etc. It’s everything else I’m not too sure about.

Definitely won’t be pre-ordering as I did with V2, though that is half because of bad experience with the state V2 was in at launch, and half just not being as interested in the 40K setting. Generally just pretty wary and will definitely be doing a lot of reading on these forums to confirm it’s in a good state before I eventually do get it. Can’t say I have the faith in FS I once did, but I do trust Darktide will be a worthwhile entry overall, or will become so at some point after its launch.

I will be very sad though if support for V2 becomes non existent after Darktide launch.

Looking forward to the game. I do have my doubts though… Firstly, will we have a crossover for Genevieve Dieudonné? Secondly, I can’t wait to play this. Me mates and family are all hyped to play as well.

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Great work will be the best assurance.

Indeed, I just hope that by “great work” we, players and FS, mean the same thing.

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I’m willing to trust Fatshark, but I can’t say the same for the investors… Tencent in particular.
After the fall from grace of CDPR being rushed to release Cyberpunk and forced to pull a Taiwanese game from their store at the behest of… ahm… “gamers”… I’m never going to have full faith that they won’t make some sort of destructive move.

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@Cornbane Could you link to the news of the taiwanese game pulled from their store? I’d like to read it.

There’s a whole bunch of them. Just punch “gog taiwanese game” into a search engine and take your pick. GoG even put out a tweet… which got ratio’d hard https://twitter.com/GOGcom/status/1339227388438306817

Gross. The “It could be worse” point is not a vote of confidence. You’re not convincing me to be excited about any game with the tagline “It will be better than Fallout 76”. Also saying “They’re trying” in a response to having chronic development issues with a game engine is also not a vote of confidence. For the life of the game its been an issue? But they have good indentations so its fine?

Vermintide 2 post launch has had a ton of issues. Features that needed updating that didn’t get it. A game mode that no one wanted prioritized over those features. A complicated pay model that paywalls way to much stuff (Maps, Cosmetics, Difficulties, Classes, Weapons). Oh and there was that time when the whole of the beta (you know, that group of players they asked to give feedback) said “hey this is pretty terrible” and then they released it anyway.

The trust I would like from Fatshark is showing that they’ve learned from those mistakes and have a better idea of how to set up continue support for a game that will feature coop combat in a Warhammer universe.

How is the gameplay infrastructure going to differ from VT2 and why. Good answers to that would be something that might instill some trust.

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If that is true, then I would love to see you make a game.

There is no such thing as a perfectly made game.

There is no such thing as a bug free game.

There is no such thing as a perfect game engine with no problems.

Even AAA developers have issues. If making games are so easy then why are there bugs/glitches/optimization issues in every game?

Do you even know how to code?

I’m really good at what I do in my job but I still make mistakes. By your logic, everyone should get fired for making mistakes.

Sounds like something a synth would say…

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I think you’re way overreaching what I said. My point was that both of your statements weren’t a statement of how good they were at things but just pointing out that it could be worse. I’m not trying to imply that they should be fired nor do I have the expectation that content updates will be totally bug free. I could give a big list of games I love that had bugs but the truth is that the end answer would be all of them.

Nice to know any critique I have will be taken as the asking for literal heads of devs. Also nice to know that since I don’t design games for a living my critiques are no longer valid along with anyone else’s that doesn’t have full knowledge of the process by which any game comes into existence ever. That’s what every piece of feedback we gave was for. So any perceived shortcoming in the development process could result in the immediate firing of its employees. Then we can shrug our hands when there’s no one left to develop or literally work any job because I thought that was the price for mistakes. Couldn’t possibly be because I like many others had a suggestion for how things might be done better. And thought that maybe collectively that information might be useful to this product we enjoy.

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Because veteran professionals left game development long ago, and now it is a bottom-feeding layer of the software industry with all that it entails regarding both hard and soft skills of the personnel.

I think I’d love to see this question answered by yourself first, mate. I already know the answer, but it is a nice chance for you to show at least some humility when talking to people you know nothing about.

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I just can’t read this argument anymore let alone take it seriously. It is simply the most nonsensical statement you can make when it comes to product development. The basis of improvement is to accept criticism and try to make something better, not to say " YeAh ThEn jUst MAke iT BeTTer yOuRSelf!1!!11!". This is a normal consumer-manufacturer relationship. If the consumer could do it better you simply wouldn’t need anyone to make a product. And if the product has problems that are not eliminated (or you may have doubts about the product due to negative experiences) then you can and should be allowed to criticize, because only in this way the manufacturer becomes aware of problems… or you simply do not buy the product anymore…

Or did the washing machine get a 2nd chance?

To find criticism not justified is also a good right, but then you should argue topic-related and not defame the opinion of others or even personal attack them. @Sevensreturn also raised a good point in my opinion:

These are things that aren’t really addressed in the OP, although Darktide should be the central topic almost nothing is said about it.

I apologize for interfering here again, although I actually declared the topic as finished for me, but I found this point important enough to point it out again. Even though more information about Darktide will surely follow, some more specific information would have been more target-oriented for sure.

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I’ll admit as a Vermintide 2 fan,(and despite my criticisms of the game , that is what I am) Vermintide 2 was the only game to allow me to actually step into the shoes of a slayer and FEEL like a slayer (Chaosbane not even close). To some extent I am taking for granted all the strengths that Fatshark has shown. Their statements regarding their understanding of the lore and their ability to apply it so that the setting have been proven true already. In the game of Warhammer world immersion, as far as I’m concerned, they reign.

So admittedly their statements are not without merit. The visual design, character writing and general world setup for Darktide will possibly be the most immersive step into that universe that the MANY 40K games have ever had. Trivializing how much a love and understanding of the lore is important to that would be a mistake. And in fact maybe even if we do get the Vermintide 2 version of this game, including all the same mistakes made in its predecessor, we should still be happy about how cool all the good portions will be.

So @SirKruber if my statements earlier indicated that I don’t think that the devs are capable of wonderful things, I do. They have done amazing things with the Warhammer property. Even in WoM while I detested weaves I saw an amazing addition in Winds (it was a great game mechanic tied to a bad game mode). My issues with Vermintide aren’t with questions of the competence of a majority of the staff, just as my concerns for Darktide aren’t that they lack the ability to put out an amazing product.

My concerns are that some really bad decision making goes on that prevents a better game from getting made. If Fatshark was devoid of talent and I was sure the game was going to be a dumpster fire, I wouldn’t be here trying to get changes made. My view on Vermintide and my concern for Darktide is that with slightly better direction of the resources they have the game could be much much better. Not by working their staff harder but by making better choices.

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