Trappers & Hordes

Trappers need a limit on either the number of bodies or the amount of mass they can fire their nets clean through.

The single most common cause of wipes on higher difficulty I’ve seen has been caused by a domino-effect of a Trapper standing at the back of a horde, protected from the players frantically shooting at them by all those bodies, and firing a net clean through twenty to thirty entities. This drags one hapless player into the middle of the horde, where all those entities promptly turn around to smack them at once, and the player goes down. Since Trappers run off when a player goes down and are free to web up another player at that point, they have a very quick turn-around time till when they can do this again.

Given the amount of time it takes to reach a downed player buried deep within a mass of bodies - particularly if bad luck means you’re out of grenades (or you’re playing Ogryn with only single-target grenades, or you’re a Psyker with no grenades and your push-back is on cooldown) - this turn-around time is often just the right amount to web up the person who finally fights their way to the downed player. If there are any other Specials or Elites on the field, this can swiftly turn a smooth game where everyone was playing intelligently into a full party wipe.

The situation is even more frustrating when the Trapper is hiding behind a pack of enemy Ogryn, of the sort you can see at higher difficulties. Then, the models are so tall and so massive, it is literally impossible to target a Trapper that runs into their midst.

These are not situations where better play on the party’s part can mitigate this problem. If you can’t form a tight & defensible knot, because it can just snatch you through an entire horde; you can’t come to your teammate’s aid quickly, like you might with a Hound or even like if they were downed normally, because the Trapper pulls them away from you, into the center of that horde; you can’t shoot the Trapper before it gets near, because the mass of an entire horde is protecting it; you can’t hit it in melee because of said mass of the entire horde, plus you are very likely to get webbed if you try; its attack doesn’t do damage to its own allied units in a way that might clear a space, like Flamer or Bomber attacks; and you can’t hide behind cover, like you would against Snipers, because it’s a very mobile Special and will just run around the cover to grab you anyway - then it seems like the Trapper may actually need some tuning.

My suggestion is to put a limit on the number of “allied” entities that the Trapper can fire through - or a limit on the total amount of mass they can fire through, to deal with the “pack of Ogryn” problem.

I can understand why it wouldn’t be a good idea to have their nets be like player projectiles, where a single allied entity in the way can block the shot entirely. There are only three other players to get in your way, while there are dozens of enemies - and the Trapper’s projectile is so wide that, if it couldn’t pass through some “allied” entities, it would almost never get to fire at all. That would be too much. But it needs a “cleave cap” of some kind. Or, if it already has one, it needs to be tuned - because it is not perceptible.

I would also be fine with a Trapper’s webbing becoming something that could trap nearby enemies along with a player, to make it a hazard-to-its-allies Special like Flamers and Bombers. But I suspect that would be even more work. Plus, a “wider net” might create a situation where multiple players get trapped by a single shot - and there are no other Specials where a single one can CC multiple players with a single attack. So, that also might be going too far.

TL:DR - On higher difficulties, a Trapper embedded in a horde - or hiding behind a pack of enemy Ogryn - can quickly become a team-wiping threat with no obvious counter. Can they please have some limitation on the amount of enemies they can fire through effortlessly and without consequence?

5 Likes

I’m torn on this. On one hand, I like that they’re dangerous specifically for this reason.
On the other hand, it is singularly the biggest reason for frustrating wipes.

1 Like

Imo it is completely fine that they shoot through horde enemies.
You can see the trapper move around inside the horde, and you can shoot it in the head.

I dislike trappers shooting through enemy ogryn and bosses though.
Those big enemies prevent you from seeing and attacking the trapper.

My big problem is, that although the trapper nets are quite large, they interact with their environment as if they were a tiny object.
Nets can pass through narrow gaps and can be shot through wire mesh (wtf), although we can only shoot bullets, but no grenades through that.

3 Likes

This is dependant on the height of your character.

I find myself not being able to do so because I usually make shorter than normal characters and a lot of the times in which a trapper gets me, its because it’s in the middle of a horde and I can neither see nor hear them…

This could be resolved by having the trapper make noise the entire time it’s on the map.

The VT2 trapper can essentially do the exact same thing but why is this not an issue in that game? Because you can hear him the entire time he’s on the map…

4 Likes

This is true. If the trapper is far enough in the horde and you are short, you might not be able to see it.

What i meant is, the trapper is the same size as some of the horde minions and taller than the others.
So it actually can be seen by the player, when it moves around in the horde (with a few exceptions).
You can also (independent of floor slope and char height) tag a trapper when it is in the horde, even with a few elites mixed in.
But you can not tag it when it is covered behind ogryn/bosses.

2 Likes

Trapper just needs a better sound cue, you can clearly say when packmaster is getting closer and closer to you in V2, with trapper most of the time you can say only that she is probably somwhere around untill netgun sound appears. And if it will make trapper too weak and not challenging it can be balanced with increasing net damage/hitbox/travel speed or reducing trapper’s reloading time.

2 Likes

Or the trapper traps enemy units and gets beaten by them. We need more infighting. Doom was great, sigh.

Maybe make it so it knocks down all the allies in its path or something. If it’s shooting through a horde, make it like Moses parting the seas. And give them enough time staggered, so that player allies could maybe rescue them before they stand back up, so it’s not so physics breaking to have a net phase through pox walkers onto you.

Or the trapper elbows it’s way to the front, or knocks down lesser enemies to get a shot to you.

:slight_smile: - an intelligent net. And open… now ! That’s the one I was after.
I’m joking of course. It’s not a bad idea. And arguably the trapper could be deciding when the net opens.

I guess if they’d made the trapper use a stun dart then we wouldn’t have the physics debate about striking through a horde. But then also it wouldn’t drag you back through a horde of 20 zombies so … meh, maybe that would have been better.

It is annoying in its current guise though as when one turns up at the back of a pack you’re gambling on someone else picking her off. Guess that’s the point. But it feels the current best solution is not to get too surrounded by mobs in the first place, which is not always an option.

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