Toughness and Shooters

Map Selection should be 1st priority for a fix but this is an issue too.

Toughness as a mechanic feels really rough right now at T5 for any non-vet class. The amount of damage that it can take feels minuscule, especially bc a strong attack can chip you at 100%, and the bleed through when not at 100% (bug? feature? I dunno) makes it feel less impactful, especially to a zealot who’s trying to keep low hp for 6 matyrdom stacks or an Ogryn who’s trying to exist. Trying to regen through coherency or feats takes a very long time and if you’re not being proactive with enemies, they will pick you apart while you squat. This was recently exacerbated by the damage enemies did in Elite Resistance, although I haven’t had too much experience on that seeing as it’s not been in rotation (see above map issue).

Optimal play right now is run enough toughness to eat 1 random horde hit / gunshot and trade that for on kill / passive regen which will put you back at 100%. And, you know, that might be enough if not for shooters.

Something has to be done about shooters. They’re considered a basic mob but are the most threatening enemies in the game. They interrupt your slow or staggered toughness regen at range, they stagger and push you so you can’t approach or dodge or move into cover or rez allies under pressure or return fire until you take you lumps, they suppress you so you can’t accurately shoot them, they can interrupt and waste your ult, and they do nutso damage to your toughness. They’re chip damage that cannot reasonably be avoided bc there’s approx. a billion of them, they scatter and hide in large arenas, and the reaction time between their sound queue and hitscan volleys are very short. You will eventually get caught between slides / unaware and you will get chunked.

I fear one single green eye more than any boss or special or elite. I can kite a Slug / Pog / Spawn all day. I can wait for a Reaper’s gun to jam. I can hear, tag, and dodge / interrupt a Shotgunner / Trapper / Flamer / Rager / Mutie / etc. All these enemies are supposed to be huge threats so it’s only fair that you have options at your disposal to mitigate or avoid them. But a single green eye? I was duo’ing today as Psyker, was at 143 toughness (full shields) but turned around and ate one volley from a silent green eye post horde that took 100% of my shields and did 8 hp damage. Before that, I needed to heal bc I simultaneously ate a volley from 2 hiding green eyes and went from full shields (143) & hp (188) to about 1/10 of my hp remaining. That is insane output for 2 trash mobs with range. How are we supposed to deal with shooters without getting shot?

Not even vets are totally safe from being harangued by shooters. See Stalkers. Why does ulting with my anti-shooter ult feel like a mistake? Why does killing a shooting target not continue it? My solution for this one would be let the Stalkers remain unmarked by the ult (their whole shtick) but let them chain like any normal shooter. Or introduce some feat where you can see them on ult (camo expert?) so we’re not overpowering the already strong anti-shooter ult.

It’s also annoying there’s no damage mitigation on curios for basic infantry for non-vet classes. Curios are a whole other bag of worms though.

I’m not sure what the solution should be but it’s very unfun and unhealthy that basic infantry is scarier and more oppressive than any taggable target. It should be addressed.

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I really don’t share your opinion on this at all. Shooters can be unforgiving if they catch you in the open or if you stumble around the corner and don’t react fast enough. Which is entirely on the player and the team as a whole for not advancing thoughtfully enough.

I think a lot of it also comes down to playstyle and team composition. If you’re in a team without a lot of ranged focus fire ability to manage and thin shooters, then you’re all going to have a harder time. If shooters both you this much, switch your kit around to something that can deal with them better.


Zealot and ogryn are incredibly good at dealing with shooters in melee combat.
And they have an easy time getting them into melee combat thanks to their class ability.


What we need are more classes that can deal with them efficiently and the option to see your teammates weapons in the lobby or when joining mid game, so you can equip ranged gear if needed. They really are a pain if your team doesn’t have anything to deal with them.

This is what makes playing anything thats not vet or ogryn so bad, I shouldn’t get stunned at all if my toughness breaks when reviving someone, at least let me trade my health for the revive, suppression should just be deleted forever this ain’t battlefield come on lol what am I supposed to do? Suck my thumb hiding in behind a box til they stop shooting? That’s not exactly the most riveting kind of gameplay you’d want from a horde game that and camping the store for curios for a chance of +3 stamina/+21% hp curios

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Literally all of the things being complained about with gunners and reapers and shooters are part of what makes them a good enemy. I play like 95% zealot and I do not regard gunners or reapers as especially challenging enemies. Just grab your gun and shoot them or engage them in melee if you have the right gear for it and a good lane of approach or grenades. You should absolutely get stunned if your toughness breaks because you’re standing in a bad spot getting shot. You are not a bullet soaking armored tank, you’re a human being. Suppression is a great mechanic that requires you to engage ceratin enemies through manuever rather than just facetanking them.

That is one option, and sometimes necessary. Or you could sprint perpendicular to their fire and slide out from cover to avoid their fire. Reposition and take a clean shot from a new angle.

I recently took on the challenge of true solo damnation (no bots) with melee only and was able to clear out groups of gunners and reapers simply through movement and positioning. It was pretty tedious compared to having friends around to take aggro so I could leverge a flanking manuever but I was able to solomelee 4 reapers and 6 gunners and a group of dreg shooters while fending off special spawns. If I had just been using my shotgun it would have been a literal cakewalk rather than the somewhat slow moving slog it was. But I’ve satisfactorially proven the point. It can be done with nothing but a chain axe and sufficient faith in the beneficent God Emperor of Mankind.

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Melee kills are a completely different story at least when the ranged enemies actually pull out melee like they’re meant to I just hate having my shots paint an outline of a sniper because some guy shot in my general direction causing mine to fumble

The map design provides cover and flankroutes in almost all parts. I play all 4 classes and with the right strategy shooters aren’t that big of a deal. They just force you to adapt and to prioritise your targets.
If a gunner surpresses you while trying to kill the sniper, then you may have to kill him first. If that is not possible, you can look for a better position or shoot from an angle where you are only exposed to one of them. If you get caught standing in the open, well timed dodge-sliding can get you across any field, even as ogryn.

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