The REAL problem. FS and the culture of control

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
21

Sorry, you’re right. That was indeed someone else. My bad.

That was Padds.

But indeed, Padds mentions another control. Coherency.

It is often quite useful to be at a distance from the team, but now we get even more voice lines about 'no, this is my fault, I wandered off!" if you go even half a block.

It feels quite heavy handed.

It’s a yes, because the question was bad and you know it.

EDIT TO ADD: Actually, let me give a bit more detail. The balcony is there as a temptation. It’s a good spot to shoot from. It’s got a door to your back no matter what, and even if you got a guy to do nothing BUT watch that door, you might get a cheat spawn (teleport in spawn) between you and him and STILL be hit from behind.

It’s very demoralizing to realize you literally can’t take any proactive action to prevent being hit from behind. You could check behind you every second and STILL be hit from behind.

Because Fat Shark programmed in cheat spawns that just pop into existence as well as putting doors which make no sound behind every good spot and leaving out footstep sounds for most enemies. You can’t barricade the door, weld it shut, lock it, blow it up, wedge it shut, mine the path, listen to it, clear out the room behind it, or EVEN WATCH IT as that won’t be enough because they got there first and set up teleport spawns immediately behind you.

And when you couple that with everything else, it starts to feel like you are being led around by the nose! (Because you are.)

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22

Yes, I have noticed that too.

I’ve also noticed that disablers (hounds, trappers and mutants) spawn in an area you just cleared when you move to the next. Happens every time.

So now I wait for them to spawn to kill them before leaving an area.

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23

I cut the middle out for emphasis.

No competent force is ever going to just consider the space behind them safe, regardless of how perfectly they’ve cleared it in the past or how well they’ve secured it in the present. None.

No it isn’t. The angles suck and the cover sucks. There are multiple spawn locations in the arena that you can’t even see, including some which have unopposed access to the stairwell behind you. The only part of the balcony that has something approaching usable cover and angle control is right in front of where that stairwell connects to it.

In the scenario you want, where nothing is coming for you, sure. It’s good. But that isn’t the game we’re playing here. Something is always coming for you. Even in the ideal scenario - Where there are no spawns with direct access to the balcony and the stairwell is protected by your teammates, things will slip though. Things always slip through.

Which leads to a narrow corridor. In a game where getting surrounded is the worst possible outcome. Where there are multiple types of specials which can just delete you if you can’t move freely, and the tougher enemies can just walk through the weaker ones to force your movement.

Enemy spawn locations depend on the locations of the players. If there’s a door near you and there’s a horde situation going on, chances are pretty good that enemies are coming though it. That’s intentional. It’s supposed to keep us on our toes and make sure we never feel totally safe. It’s the nature of the game.

Let’s set aside the issue of that balcony for a minute - You’re trying to apply real-world tactics to a very un-real world here. Some of it will work, some of it won’t. I’m not saying you’re wrong for wanting what you want. I’m saying that you’re calling for things that aren’t always going to work in this environment, or with this enemy.

24

You say that like they will tolerate being hit from behind every 15 seconds by small units and every 3 minutes by large.

But you’re also missing the main point that things are set up in every aspect of the game to exert an unusually extreme amount of control over the player.

Right, this is a fairly fantastic infantry simulation. It should have expected rules like gravity and not being able to walk through walls, but we have a ton of really weird things like:

(Hang on I’ll get a cut and paste list going and start adding to it as I remember things.)

Can’t do a build without extreme effort/investment,
LECTURES where there used to be hints if you separate even a little, (“They wandered off!” becomes “I wandered off! This is my fault! I must WANT to die!”
Ranged vs melee weird punishment mechanics.
Teleport spawns so you can’t even just watch the doors. (cheat spawns)
No closed captions so you have to listen closely, but also no footstep sounds so that is of dubious value. (except boom zombie)
Coherency.
Reverse fall off,
Ranged dodge autofail.
(fixed but still shows pattern.) Forced to check store regular and walk passed cash shop to do it.
Ranged weapon speed bump animations. (Not as bad but still present.)
Extra spawns behind you if you get a good tactical position.
Many obvious choices absent.
Speedbumps to actions.

A pattern of heavy handed control. VERY heavy handed.

(Edit to add: BTW, I’m not even saying ALL of those are entirely bad. Some are just in to help with the pattern. Many ARE bad, and collectively they add to to a great deal.)

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25

To any game, there is a structure of how to play it, and its design makes the game what it is. It’s fine to a degree to make hard-edged designs to funnel people into playing a certain way, with the caveat that it needs to be enjoyable. That’s the point of a game.

So, you can’t just pick up your piece in Monopoly and jump past all of your opponent’s properties at a whim, and there are rules of play, but then at the same time “house rules” exist where people play as they see fit that makes the game more enjoyable to them. Those “house rules” tend to be what shift the defined rules in later versions of games, because games tend to follow whatever people find more enjoyable within the game. Like, back to monopoly, one of the rules is that if you land on a property and can’t/don’t want to buy it, it goes up for auction, but most people ignore that rule as a ‘qol’ change. It might fundamentally change the game to a degree, but most people don’t want to go through a thousand auctions while playing.

Still, there are rules of play, but rules in games are allowed to be bent for enjoyment. Enjoyment is paramount, always. If you don’t find something enjoyable, you won’t want to keep doing it, so unenjoyable things tend to get weeded out from games. But…

But FS isn’t looking at it from a perspective of enjoyment; it’s purely from a perspective of engagement. The problem here is that engagement feeds from enjoyment, so they’re skipping the element that creates engagement and fumbling around trying to figure out what to do with this situation without even once considering whether something needs to be enjoyable. This is evidenced by their “it will impact item acquisition” excuse, rather than anything to do with how it affects player enjoyment. Totally the wrong perspective to take when trying to design a game system.

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26

Honestly, it sounds like you want a 40k game, just not this 40k game.

You want a 40k tac shooter. This isn’t that.

Also, ranged dodge works just fine.

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27

Range dodge not dodging was a thing they tested in the closed beta and it was not good for anyone involved. One of the few things that changed between that beta and release.

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28

I’m aware - I suspect Mr Barracuda here hasn’t played in quite some time.

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29

No, I think he’s giving all historical attempts that Fatshark tried to guide/force certain playstyles/behaviours with a more heavy hand than usual as part of his argument, and while some of them were tuned/removed/fixed since they happened, it still shows a pattern where they’re not content for players to really branch out and discover things, players have to play the exact way Fatshark intended or else.

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30

Exactly, thank you.

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31

I take the “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.” perspective on most things, this included.

Where you see “attempts to force”, I see “trying to create an experience”. Maybe that experience isn’t what some people are after, maybe they’re not doing a great job at creating it. Either way, what’s happening here is that people are looking at an apple and complaining that it isn’t an orange.

They’re certainly not doing these things because people don’t like them. That’s nuts.

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32

They’re not doing it because people don’t like them, but they’re trying to create an experience that maybe sounds good on paper but never quite reaches a good point because of some oversight, problem, bug or heavy handedness that can chafe up against expectations, existing rules or a fairly noticeable issue of breaking the flow of gameplay.

Like you said, it’s not malice, but it’s not really stupidity either, it’s more that Fatshark pushes ideas that feel halfbaked and untested and still tries to “encourage” those ideas with more negative reinforcement, like inhibiting player ability and choice, and punishing game behavior.

I think we’re pretty much on the same line, the point of it is I can see Barracuda’s point, maybe not as strongly as he feels it. For me it’s the half-arsing of it gets me more that having a “guided experience”.

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33

“Stupidity” is just the word in the quote - I don’t actually think they’re stupid. Stubborn, definitely, but not stupid.

I half suspect they’re also just plain unable to react quickly for some reason. Probably lots of reasons.

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34

This is very possible.

There’s a million reasons why this behavior might have come about, and while I can speculate on that, speculating about what is in other people’s heads puts you on much shakier ground then talking about the pattern of observable behavior.

My best theory is they were trying to force it to be vermintide despite the radical technology changes… out of fear of losing the core audience and somewhere along the line it just grew and grew and got out of hand, but it could spring from a core personality on the team, ten cent’s influence, an unfamiliarity with games in this modern a setting, be a national thing, a host of other things.

But it’s certainly a pattern, and the trouble the game is in demonstrates it’s a pattern that is way, way above what we might consider acceptable in this department.

35

I’ve heard flat management style, which worked when the company was small, but struggled to scale when the company became multiple times bigger.

I think that’s probably the truth of it tbh.

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36

If you bring real world history as an argument I suggest reading about Stalingrad. In urban combat you are always under a 360 degree threat - always. And the notion that a team of four could do anything to prevent that in such a complex environment as a hive city is quite unrealistic. This „constant pressure from all sides“ feeling Darktide creates is actually very lore accurate for what we are trying to do there (unlike the number of foes we actually slay during a mission ;)) and for me personally part of Darktides appeal.

I‘m not sure what you’re trying to say here but if you are implying Darktide is good at simulating infantry I have to disagree. It certainly isn’t - but neither should it nor does it try to.
I‘ve seen few games that are actually decent infantry simulators and even fewer where AI then is up to the task.
I‘d be very happy about an Imperial Guard infantry simulator where you maybe lead a kill team of Cadian Shock Troopers or Death Korpsmen into cleansing field fortifications and similar - yet that wouldn’t be Darktide. It would be a completely different game.

I have to say that during mission and combat I don’t feel controlled. As you say every game has limits within which you move during play - and I don’t feel DT‘s to be notably narrower then in comparable games - I had lots of fun experimenting within these limits. I have 5 characters with 5 presets each and they all play differently - sometimes a little sometimes a lot.
However I share your opinion concerning stuff that has nothing to do with combat - be it the locks, be it the FOMO premium shop rotation, be it the old penances (which were thankfully replaced by more sensible ones)

For me however the biggest problem is being lied to and being kept in the dark.

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37

i agree this is design pulling in two directions. heh lacking coherancy you might say!
but i just see that as the left hand not knowing what the right was doing and coherancy being a good idea implemented im guessing in a rush and needing a rework.

im not denying the game has rules and funnels people into playing certain ways , i just think colouring it as control and nefarius intent of evil devs is a bit , well lets say hyperbolic and few steps too far. i think in a fair even handed comparison DT isnt any different in having rules as any other game. does for example sf6 have rules or is it all control forcing you to use blocks and play footsies. of course no one views that as control its the game.

there has just been an increasing self fueling storm of outrage on these forums stemming from the very valid complaints but just festering and getting more and more extreme , now we have people reffering to the devs as sub human in many complaint threads actively accusing them of being evil and deliberately attempting to do… something?

i just find it all very unhelpful and being a student of history more than a little alarming.

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38

TIL that Alex Jones has a Fatshark account.

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39

Because that’s all you. There’s a difference between being controlling and heavy handed and even manipulative and having a secret illuminati style scheme.

Tons of people are extremely manipulative for no particular benefit to themselves, and they wreck their families, their marriages, and their own happiness as often as they accomplish anything of use to themselves.

That deeply silly person above who posted the directions on the tinfoil hat and you yourself are falling victim to the very modern impulse that anything you didn’t already work out must be insanity, even when the evidence for whatever it is is not only right in front of you, the thing that is observed is quite common.

“I think someone is stealing!”
“Oh, and lizard men on the moon huh?! Crime doesn’t happen! You must be craaaazy.”
“The milk has gone off.”
“Oh, and lizard men on the moon huh?!You must be craaaazy.”
"Don’t go to Bill’s garage. He overcharges.
“Oh, and lizard men on the moon huh?! You must be craaaazy.”

But of course crime happens. Deeply silly to suggest otherwise, and deeply silly to dismiss anything you didn’t already work out.

This isn’t a theory, this is right in front of you.

It’s not even a conspiracy, since there isn’t really a crime, Fat Shark can do what Fat Shark wants with Fat Shark’s game, even run it into the ground. When I say that being this controlling is killing the game, I’m not alleging a crime on Fat Shark’s part, though I do think it rather ill, any more then I would say that a woman who constantly nags her husband or a man who is unfeeling to his wife is a engaged in a grand plot.

But all these things happen and it’s excessively silly on your part to suggest -mostly open- bad behavior is comparable to such.

40

That we are on foot.

(Though as an aside I’d quite like a tank… )

Which of the belligerents had silent teleportation technology and also always a room full of guys that somehow was always conveniently behind the other side?

Then you need to pay more attention.

Look specifically for this exact thought running through your head. “I want to… and I sort of can… but if I do that I’ll get into trouble with the mechanics.”

I might have been a bit short with you above, but on this you are absolutely correct.

And that something I should have added to the pattern. Originally we were promised modular weapons. It didn’t happen. There’s even a Kantrael lasgun in one of the original teasers with no optic.

Now, people were a little mad that we didn’t get that, but they were even angrier when the then Fat Shark community rep tried to pretend it was never a thing.

Additionally, after launch they went on vacation and radio silent for the longest time, and didn’t say a thing, and then gave interviews telling how amazingly good the launch was.

This whole situation surrounding darktide from day one has all the hallmarks of an abusive relationship. (But I’m sure one of the silly people will be along shortly to tell me that abusive relationships are a hoax and abuse doesn’t happen and I should have a tin foil hat for having seen them in real life.)

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