Exactly this.
I haven’t seen 1 person say they actually like demotions/ranking in havoc.
IMO very much yes.
It certainly puts me off playing. I only just started playing again since the revamp because I hated the way demotions work so much.
And now I can only attempt 1 mission a night when the world around me has gone to sleep so I am least likely to be disturbed for a 1.5 hour window.
It’s quite absurd how difficult they make it to play havoc.
I myself have not touched Havoc maps. If PUG maps are any indication of players, then I will most likely never do them unless I get a full team of friends in game on the same time-zone before I try them.
This is guaranteed to be the same way many feel and this is a huge shame imo.
No one wants to touch it because it’s shrouded in toxic gatekeeping and threatening anxiety.
The actual gameplay is really fun if you like a sweaty buzz but finding a game to play is one of the worst experiences in DT.
How about you just not care about your rank?
I used to join anything with 3+ players, now I join anything. EITHER I’ll help, or I’ll get a challange. Usually the latter as the others will just grief but heyho 2025. I actually enjoy playing around 32-38, I find it has the best players and the most fun matches. Anything above is lowskill tryhards or cookiecutters most of the time. I’d rather be declined with a Lasgun than accepted with a cookiecutter loadout I dont enjoy playing, and I play exclusively pub PickUpGroup’s.
Its funny how a large portion of the playerbase have developed a ‘Havoc is toxic why bother’ mentality and its also these guys that REALLY struggle i nthe game mode. Almost like its an excuse.
If you actually enjoy the game and play for gameplay/to learn the rank40 and cosmetics come naturally.
I can’t ignore it as I don’t want to mess other people’s games/rank up. That’s just the way my brain works and it’s how I play games.
If rank doesn’t matter, as you say, then surely it should just be removed from the game?
There have been many posts on the forums explaining why the demotion system is terrible, anti-player, anti-fun, anti-agency.
EDIT: I got true survivor and badge on week 2 of havoc release fyi. I play well in havoc. I still think the entire mission board and party finder is toxic AF.
Branding anyone who calls it toxic as a weak player is not a good take at all.
I’d be more than happy to remove all rank based system but keep progression/ grind carrots. Trust me, this isnt a competitive game, and despite having a faux mode for it, the mentalities encountered with regards to finishing the mission are not competitive in the slightest and personally I think I wold know.
Sorry to be blunt, but I dont care about how you or others think you might impact others by simply playing the game. IRL happens, you gotta leave you say sorry, maybe say why, and leave. That isn’t to say you dont start an online match just to leave because something coems up, you should dedicate yourself to the time with those people, allies or opponents, but likewise they should be tolerant that everyone has a life and losing rank because something genuinely comes up is not the beallendall of their DT 'skill. Besides they wont take the same consideration for you, far from it in some cases and the direct opposite in others of griefing/trolling. A game I play called Company of Heroes 2 is a strategy game, and has been being invaded by Chinese ‘dropquitters’ who will, after a 4v4 has spent 10 mins arranging and loading, instantly drop at the start of the game. You’re not doing that, youre just trying to play.
‘Rank’ is ignorable and means nothing. Like mtx. Because you cant or wont isnt an excuse to remove something though.
edit
How about branding anyone calling things they don’t like toxic? C’mon. Youre better than that.
You know the “a lemon is a cross between citron and bitter orange” meme?
Thats how we got ranks and demotion. Before havoc, tons of players ranted about player leaving mid game and how FS needs to solve this issue. They did in havoc by introducing ranks and all the little quirks that come with it, including lock outs, demotions, and other mechanics that deter you from leaving your team, or not trying your hardest.
It certainly had nothing to do with “making sure you are skilled enough”. Havoc, when it went live, straight up catapulted you to the hardest rank you completed after all. So that can not be their core design choice.
Even if you do not usually run Mael, Havoc can be fun. The lower ranks are much more chill than people tend to realise, and they still grant a vast majority of the cosmetics. It is not much different from a usual run, with the added negative that you have to scrape a group together.
I honestly do still not understand why FS cut matchmaking for Havoc. If they wanted to reinforce the social aspect of this game there would be way better methods, like not auto disbanding parties after a standard map, adding whispers and pop ups to their social system, or adding a button to add people on steam at the end of match screen.
The lack of matchmaking is still my by far biggest issue with this mode. Even as someone who has a friends list full of people to play havoc with, sometimes there are not enough people around. Having to invest time into the Party finder is a massive pain in the backside.
And to be blunt, you seem to argue for the sake of arguing.
What is your point exactly? That havoc is flawed but we should all just ignore the missionboard?
Or are you arguing that the derank system is a good system?
Im joining the open discussion with what I have to say, dont act like its an alien concept now.
I’m not argueing anything but Im saying you shouldnt feel anxiety about playing a game mode lol and that maybe try to ignore it and enjoy the game. sheesh
The quitting was so bad but now theres a fix people state they get anxious over the pressure put on them not to quit because something legitamate comes up. As if everyone lives in an online world where there’s no interruptions. You cant make it up.
FYI thats my world, and it sucks. You SHOULD have some interruptions, and if it breaks matchmaking so be it. At least give us the toold to alleviate like ingame temp bans for quitting x in y timeframe etc
Lock-outs would suffice imo.
No need for demotion.
The concept might have been good on paper but as we can see it puts many people off the mode entirely. So in practice it’s a failure.
Perhaps desertion from a mission is the only way you can be demoted. That might encourage more people to play.
Yeah but I’ve already said that’s just how my brain works. I can’t change that.
It’s irrelevant though because if a game mechanic is trash then we shouldn’t just ignore it or adapt to it, we should campaign to have it changed.
Why wouldn’t we want it changed if it sucks and deters many players?
Yhe, we disagree about changing ones brain.
Not, thats not campaigning, thats lobbying, something else we disagree on.
Because its a useful mechanic to stop quitters, which were a huge problem before. You may not remember or have been present. And again, to reitterate, I dont think DT needs a faux rank system, but it does need an anti quitter spam mechanic. One that doesnt take individuals brains into account preferably, so that it cant be gamed. IRL notwithstanding, as I mentioned previously.
edit
I also think the way your brain works is to attack and denigrate anythign that disagrees with you with calls of ‘toxicity’. Something else I vehemently disagree with, but lets see your reply to a quitter mechanic.
Yes I very much agree and have given examples above.
I honestly believe a lock out would be enough, both minimum time and the missing that was deserted (player would have to wait for both to finalised before allowed to play havoc again).
Or something else that could work - if a player quits 3 missions in a row then they get a mandatory title of “probation” that we can all see and they only get rid of it by finishing (or failing) 3 missions without quitting.
Imagine having that “probation” tag in havoc? No one would ever chose you so you’d soon learn to avoid it.
Kneejerk reaction much? What else in DT have I called toxic that I disagree with?
Perhaps as someone who doesn’t seem to care about fellow players experiences, as you’ve admitted above, you cannot understand the reasoning of toxicity.
But hey, also lovely way to derail with an attack in your edit.
So now this thread is going to become a bitching contest. Something you’ve done in many other threads. Thanks.
I didnt admit that at all. Do not put words in my mouth. If I have team mates in every sense of those words I’m an equally good teammate. If I have w spam meta bots, Im not and will not even try to clutch for them.
It wasnt an attack, you perceived it as one, so it was a statement.
Ergo, you might not understand why many people find this mode toxic if you don’t care about how the game mode affects other people.
Instead of arguing about why we think it’s toxic or not, how about just coming up with solutions and suggestions to fix the demotion system that clearly everyone, even yourself, thinks is rubbish.
Such as:
I understand, I dont agree. Causation doesnt equal correlatio nor whatever the efficiency kids say.
Just remove the fact it exists from your head. It signifies nothing. Thats what I do and just play whatever. Its a game, its the same enjoyment and same skill whether your ranks 40 or -40. Oh no I was demoted from arbitrary number to another. Its a glorified anti quitter mechanic for a game mode where grinding numbers is fine but not a sign of anything. Its the only grind we have and I want/like grind.
What I don’t like in Havoc (and note that I don’t ask any change) is:
- all the things that make Havoc toxic, mainly the demotion system.
- we cannot choose our map and conditions (I agree with @Palumtra )
- everything that “restrict” the builds you can use (ammo hidden modifier si one of them)
I don’t like gameplay based on bubbles / chorus etc.
That’s the main reason why, every times I played Havoc, I was really happy when it ended. My experience is that the game mode is boring.
I repeat, I don’t ask any change. If it pleases the ones that want something with a difficulty close to impossible, great. But, my experience is pretty terrible and uninteresting.
So, they can remove the demotion system, I won’t play it. I have the cosmetics, and believe me it was a pain to complete these missions.
To tell the truth, even mortis trial (that is arcade and not really a good game mode) seems more interesting. I try to complete the penances for it, even if I cannot play 2 mortis trial one after the other. Too easy… too… boring after 30 min.
But Havoc, when I start the mission, I just want that the mission ends… I hate the game mode.