(left is big boom, right is 25% ammo. You have to pick now!)
Making it now exclusive for use with PBB or taunt (ruins the powermaul fun build) and also makes it so you now need to drop one ogryn talent on rumbler and grenade glove builds, because you need to double up on a skillpoint to get both the ammo and explosion radius, which you could previously both get just by pathing. That’s a pretty horrid requirement for these weapons because they’re extremely ammo starved to begin with and lucky bullet and burn sucks for them, so they have no other means of gaining ammo efficiency. If you want both, you now have to give up one extremely high value talent, such as a keystone, heavyweight, 25 toughness, bruiser or dominate.
Basically the change doesn’t actually help these builds. It seemed to have only been done for reasons that have no real world relevance. In the end you just nerfed the power maul and rumbler and grenade glove, 3 weapons that were absolutely underused and undertuned to begin with, just to make an improvement that improves nothing. Ontop of this, they KILL a build, the explosion radius power maul melee build which was actually quite pleasant to play, unique and fun. Now Ogryn has even less build variety and his worse builds got even worse. Wrong direction for this character.
Please, reconsider or revert. If you’re going to touch the tree, PLEASE do a full overhaul and put some proper thought into it, not these undercooked disimprovements.
Yeah I think that weapon is held back the most by how it has terrible ammo econ, same as the grenade glove. Making the 25% ammo node directly compete with the explosion radius node is a really bad brainfart, zero considerations were made for the guns that actually use big boom.
And I wouldn’t complain about this if the changes werent so nonsensical, but we’re gonna get a nice talent reset with that, too. Fun times remaking builds that are nerfed now.
Thinking about these changes further, these swap-arounds really served absolutely no purpose other than making Reloaded and Ready (15% damage on reload) unavailable for most melee builds now. Fair enough if intentional (kickback is strong), but it sure hurts when lesser used ranged builds get nerfed and the most used ranged builds are totally unaffected by this because they just pick the same talents anyways. (Edit: this actually isn’t true - the 15% reload damage talent is now BEHIND PACEMAKER which is an ass talent, so the meta ranged ogryn build has been nerfed with this move, too)
The more I think about these changes the less sense they make. They seem to have literally mostly been done because someone had an issue with two thematically similar talents being seperated. Congrats, they’re together now I guess. What did we achieve?
Yes, this also pretty much railroads ogryn even more by locking melee builds out of a potentially desirable talent + moving a ranged talent from the top totally out of reach in the bottom right.
@Hank_jw As the Ogryn playtester, do you have an angle on this I’m not seeing?
I suppose I can see that although I never regarded that as a high value talent that I actually want to get. The 25% ammo, 15% ranged damage on reload and 27.5% explosion radius are actually all quite significant talents though and their accessibility was definitely worsened for all builds that want them (other than the bog standard achlys burn pbb build, which remains entirely unaffected)
If that was the consideration it feels very disproportionate, but I can see the logic a little bit.
They’re not live yet, but they will be tomorrow with the patch. Several youtubers including Hank made youtube vids on the talent tree (plus gameslantern is already hosting the new one) if you want to see the changes yourself early. Basically 4 talents got shuffled in a pretty bad way, no other changes.
pictures ogryn with a red cap with these initials.
remaking a build isn’t that much work, i know my builds and can click them quickly in the editor, but it’s annoying when something you have used usccessfully doesn’t work anymore because of changes that apparently weren’t well thought out.
i assumed ogryn would get a few extra talent points or at least some connections between nodes.
at least, i don’t play much gunlugger, the main “basher” build stays (all toughness nodes above, go from big bomb diagonally to the left branch)
suppression passive is right above the Coward Culling aura now which is good.
I think the changes wouldn’t be terrible, but for some damn reason Pacemaker is above and not below Reloaded and Ready. It would be so much better if you could just grab the 5% ranged damage and then Reloaded and Ready for 2 points on mostly melee builds, but you have to spend 3 because of Pacemaker which is a little too much to consider.
I think easy access on ANY class to a +50% coherency radius talent is good, but it should never be in the way of builds that don’t want it. Steady Grip and Lynchpin should have their locations swapped so non coherency using ranged builds aren’t forced into it.
I can only hope @FatsharkStrawHat is paying attention, and passes on our disappointment at these unnecessary nerfs.
Zealot remains OP and Ogryns gets a Nerf, go figure
Not gonna lie, this is the biggest thing about it to me.
Not only are the changes dumb as hell (outside of moving towering presence) but it also breaks all 5 of my builds (In fairness they’re gonna be easy as hell to remake because ogryn’s talent tree is still basic as frack)
These changes make certain Ogryn builds arguably worse in the short-term (and others better), but they address some weird/inconsistent talent places in the tree and lay down more sensible foundations for, hopefully, future revisions/expansions/what-have-you. I’m not in a position to promise anything so I won’t, and I can’t, but if it’s up to me then this is far from the last change the Ogryn tree receives.
Generally speaking, it is good game design that the stronger talent requires more investment. Swapping their positions is more convenient, but that does not make the tree more interesting to path through. Having to make tough choices is desirable overall.
But the Ogryn tree isn’t in a good enough spot yet so more work to be done!
Yeah well now nobody bothers and the talent trees are railroaded further though. I get the idea is variety but the actual effect is the opposite unfortunately: The changes didn’t create any tough choices. They just made it so off-meta builds take +1 talent point to execute and/or can’t get that +15% damage on reload anymore. No choices were added, choices were taken away.
Less so than before honestly. It literally killed a build and nerfed multiple off meta builds. I hope you can put in a word to maybe test these changes better and make actual sensible changes in the future, if any, and failing that at least I hope they stop making it worse until a rework.
