To go bit more deeper, How are you seriously saying that handgun with something along the lines of what 1.5-2 second reload is even close to 6 shot magazine pistol even when left click firing?
I didn’t see you’re edit.
Yes the piston pistol will kill the SV faster if you use the burst fire, but don’t pretend as tho the handgun isn’t capable of dealing with it either. Both guns have different drawbacks and advantages, the handgun will delete anything in front of you and will cleave through. A RV can use their ult to kill the SV safely. The pistons pistols main advantage is lethal at close range, the handgun is just as powerful at all ranges, allowing you to snipe the 1 of the 3 blightstormers across the map, something the piston pistol cannot do. The guns are well balanced as they are. You gain and lose something by choosing one over the other. If you’re a player who finds SV to be your biggest threat then no wonder you think the piston pistol is OP as you probably rely on it too much tbh.
Unless I’m going absolutely mad, the handguns cleave is pretty much 0. (I haven’t checked the stats in a WHILE but I’m pretty confident with this)
Also even when spamming LEFT Click on the masterwork its still almost twice as fast at firing off those 12 shots so I really cannot see the argument how they are similar in dealing the situation described by rebel.
The pistol kills faster period. Maulers, close-mid range specials, Stormvermin, monsters.
Handgun doesn’t have any more cleave than pistol does. You can’t kill 2 Stormvermin with one handgun shot for example without AP slugs talent.
Who’s talking about 1 Stormvermin? No one cares about 1, people are talking about 4-6 per horde wave, or 12 ambients, or 24 patrol.
Yeah, it one shots stuff, but you will never kill stuff as fast as pistol.
What you gain and what you lose isn’t equal though.
The handgun has cleave, to quote.
What you’re forgetting about the the piston pistol is it’s designed for CQC, the handgun is good at all ranges. If your nerf its damage potentional at close range then honestly what would be the point of bringing it? It does not have a lot of ammo at all. You can argue the pistol is good good on RV from the ammo sustain and 50% ult damage buff, but if you nerf the piston pistols ability to effectively handle what is thrown at the player at close range you destroy its personality, it’ll be like nerfing the blunderbuss for being too strong at close range.
The handgun is good at all ranges, it doesn’t have the rapid alt fire the piston pistol has, but it doesn’t suffer damage fall off either, allowing you to snipe dangerous specials at long ranges, which is the main role of range weapons anyway, to deal with specials, not elites, even still, most range weapons delete SV quite easily anyway, but their main function is to deal with specials, so if SV are your biggest concern on Cata that you need to rely on the pistol then no wonder you think it’s OP… Now on cata, the piston pistol really suffers at sniping things like blightstormers as it has a slow fire rate and they often teleport before you finish them off. Again, the handgun does not suffer from this.
I feel like making a dam video at this point to prove its simply not the case. SURE I would understand the argument if it would require headshots to kill most things but it simply does not. The time it takes for you to aim and fire a accurate shot with handgun is pretty similar to hitting crouch and firing 2 shots off with masterwork. Its simply not inaccurate enough in 99 % of the cases to make a difference in terms of raw killing power.
Anyway I’m not into endless arguments which this is clearly turning out to be.
MWPistol is the Drakegun of elites.
You got to be joking, the RV has can have a reload speed of 50%, he can dish out rapid fire quite effectively.
Not true, the piston pistol suffers from damage fall off, unless you’re up close and personal with that blightstormer you’re not going to kill it faster than a handgun this is a lie.
You lose the ability to effectively deal with deadly specials at long range this is a serious drawback on Cata as specials are always the biggest threat in the game, especially since it’s not uncommon to see 3 at a time. Having to deal with the piston pistols damage fall off and trigger delay is a massive disadvantage when fulfilling an anti special role which is the main job of a career such as RV. You have careers like GK to annihilate the monsters and SV. The range careers job is anti special not anti elite.
My dude, why should the piston pistol need to land headshots to kill SV when the manbow doesn’t?
Both weapons have a firing delay, both will kill SV with a body shot, only one can pen super armour.
15%, it’s a bit faster than normal. Still takes 1.5 - 2 seconds per Stormvermin to aim shoot and reload.
You keep talking as if damage fall off is a big deal. Like, 90% of all combat happens in close-mid range. You can shoot the blightstormer twice and he’s dead. It’s not impossible to kill stuff at long range with pistol.
No, you don’t lose this ability, you just do it worse than handgun.
Longbow needs headshots in Cataclysm. That’s what we’re telling you, base pistol one-shot bodyshots Stormvermin, and with some investment can 2 shot bodyshot maulers and one-shot bodyshot Bestigors in Cataclysm. And then there’s all the specials too that it 1-2 shots. Pistol literally does equal damage to handgun, just with more damage fall off.
Really don’t see how this is relevant to our comparison but I don’t believe any weapon without some massive drawbacks should be able to just body shot elites in this game.
(Also as far as I’m aware this is only true in legend)
It needs to be toned down, but go too far and no one will use the janky thing
I feel like if anything the point here is that they did end up getting nerfed tbh.
I agree, I’m not arguing for a massive nerf here, at minimum it should require a power investment to do what it does currently at base values.
Ok so the only comment I plan on making regarding this is that the handgun DOES have a small amount of cleave (less than xbow and most other ranged weapons). What’s important to note here is that you will not cleave through armour and you will not cleave much (if at all, I don’t have the numbers on hand) if we’re talking high mass targets (marauders+).
The Masterwork Pistol also seems to either cleave the same amount or more but I’m not certain.
Not cleaving armour is the big thing to take away here though, so that value has very little bearing on how effective a weapon is vs SV or Bestigors. The MP is objectively better in close quarters vs anything below a CW and also much better vs monsters.
I think NewNoise10 was referring to Firing Fury (35.0% + 15.0%). Still, RV can’t cleave elites with his ranged weapons, so it’s only relevant in mixed horde situations and the Masterwork Pistol still benefits from it anyway. Definitely not going to matter against a pat or massed elites (exception is Grugderaker vs Maulers but they always come with hordes).
Honestly the only things the Handgun really has over it for me is shield penetration (a nice but niche benefit due to low % of shield enemies) and distant killing. The new pistol definitely needs changes.
I swear I remember the Handgun being buffed to match the Crossbow’s cleave in the BBB. Am I mistaken?
whoops just checked and yeah it’s equal to xbow now (forgot it was only swiftbow and volley that copped nerfs in the beta)
anyway it still sucks compared to MP in close quarters
I’m just going to echo what’s been said throughout the thread by others.
Most of us aren’t arguing that it should require headshots against Stormvermin. More so just an additional property or two for Cata bodyshots in exchange for a slightly faster charge up, slightly more distant accuracy and slightly less dropoff. A small nerf to its monster damage as well (can still be high, just not so high). Dodge count can also be brought down to 6 from 100. Less jank, more Mastercrafted dwarf weaponry, but still with unique character.
I think it’s pretty cool that Bardin now has a fun, versatile multi shot ranged weapon like the Repeater Handgun and BoP. With some tweaks it could fill a similar role to those weapons (capability against multiple specials) but with enhanced ability against elites, monsters and better special breakpoints at the cost of being less reactive.
You know, I’m a bit on the fence here…
On the one hand I dread the powercreep and would rather see nerfs than buffs…
Having said that I don’t really see MWP as OP. I have tried it for 10+ runs now - it does deal ridiculous amount of damage, like 6 shots 6 SW@Legend in close range. It does annihilate stuff with altfire (if you shoot it pointblank). However that winding up before each shot makes it bad for whipping out and sniping specials, the range power drop off and accuracy makes it less viable for sniping that pesky blightstormer. The fact that engi has his gatling makes it less necessary for him. To be honest I have not played (and not going to play) other Bardin careers until I complete all challenges…
So, to summarise I don’t really think it’d be nerfed, but I’m certain it must not be buffed.
I’m not quite sure if damage is the only problem.
It beats out Crossbow at close range, on par at medium range, far better monster damage.
The cleave is the same I believe; similar if not slightly better horde clearing. (Both running Firing Fury) More ammunition and 1 more ammunition back per cache. (30% caches)
Crossbow has 1 shot breakpoints at long range (Against the Grain distances) and 10% crit chance on ADS, that’s really it.
Crossbow can probably squeeze out more Disengage usage and get more bomb dupes or THP ults by taking advantage of Master of Improvisation at least.
But in majority of situations, MW pistol simply outclasses Crossbow right now.
So essentially: Make the weapon less unique and less defined. I don’t see how any of the changed would benefit the gameplay. It would just make it a slightly less effective handgun without the SA-pierce, less accuracy and super-inaccurate spam at very close range. So what if it needs additional stacks of damage to achieve what it already does? So people will get, and then you are stuck with a weapon that does exactly what it does now, but with better range and faster primary fire. That sounds like buffing the weapon with extra steps.