The heavy nerfs to the Beastmen faction removed a lot of their identity

I genuinely love fighting Beastmen, they are one of my favourite factions in Warhammer Fantasy, and the audio visual design of them in Vermintide is extremely well done.

I feel like a notable outlier in that I genuinely preferred how the enemies felt to fight in both the games preorder beta, and the Winds of Magic beta, in that they had more mass and weight. The major reason being it made melee feel more grounded, and attacks had more satisfying impact. I find weapons such as the two-handed hammer, the glaive, and the axe a lot more engrossing in the moment to moment melee than the majority of high cleaving tools of war because of this fact.

Vermintide (and now Darktide) has some of the most technologically impressive and engaging melee combat I’ve ever seen in a video game, but I feel it’s at its worse when your weapons glide through the enemies with no sense of weight, and the audio design for bladed cleave weapons is immensely less satisfying.

The Gor hordes used to have a specific niche to make up for their lack of shields, being their heavy mass, which I absolutely loved. I greatly enjoyed the tweaks to combat to make it feel more like a back and forth duel, with a heavier emphasis on staggering to make enemies vulnerable, faster reaction times and smarter enemies to make dodging more skill based, and the feeling of holding back a onslaught, a swarm, of enemies, rather than just swiping through them and barely giving them any individual recognition as opponents.

Rather then improving the telegraphing of the attacks, outright removing the headbutt and kick animations also makes them less visually interesting and unique, and removes some of their bestial identity.

This is similar to why I feel the flak armoured enemies in Darktide are too weak and unsatisfying to fight in melee combat, when you can effortlessly stunlock your foe, and there is no gameplay incentive to using more advancing mechanics or dueling, I feel the gameplay is at its worst.

Removing the Ungors dodge mechanics was confusing and unnecessary, as it was a fun niche to make them stand-out as foes, and didn’t undermine the player in any frustrating way, especially since the hitboxes on the spears were fixed.

Since you can dodge, tag and parry, Ungor bows, the fact that their accuracy is now (at least mostly on legend difficulty, since it’s difficult for me to find cataclysm matches), so incredibly low also makes them incredibly uninteresting to fight.

I thought they were a great addition, in that similar to the hybrid combat in Darktide, it provided a good use for mid-range, high clip size ranged weaponry, which before their addition, felt incredibly underwhelming compared to the sniping gear, since specials were the only primary ranged threat (and horde clear ranged weapons still struggle to find a use).

Bestigors lack the shields, spawn density and damage potential of Stormvermin, and the heavy protective armour, high mass and dueling ability of the Chaos Warriors.
Since their telegraphed charge was so heavily nerfed, and can be mitigated by an easy dodge, or even just blocking, and they have a large vulnerable weakpoint without good armour, they very often feel weak and nonthreatening.

The Banners and Minotaurs are both in a good spot I believe, but expose how underwhelming the lack of unit variety in the Beastmen roster is.

If Vermintide is to receive more support in the future, I definitely feel like the Beastmen are worth further looking into to make them a more engaging and fun part of the game.

2 Likes

I totally agree with you that the Beastmen should be expanded upon. If you’re interested we had an interesting discussion a, long, while back on this topic.

2 Likes

The heavier mass is why so many hated them, you tried staggering or hitting a bunch and half them werent affected at all and just 1hitKO´d you instead in a sync´d attack.

That and their animations were crazing jarring back then too, plus their damage has always been high.

Pre-nerf archers were horrendous, no excuses.

Instead, if i am not mistaken, they got more mass, more range, more stagger resistance and definitely more health than any random stormvermin. Which combined with a banner turns regular cata into modded difficulty quite randomly.

A special that may or may not add a +1 to the difficulty level is not fun.
…

In terms of balance the biggest problem with beastmen overall is that their banners are horrendously oppressive when you lack the means to knock them down instantly, or pull away and murder all the goats before the banners can relocate. This is part of why they cant have better or more diverse units.

That and the fact that the rats and rotbloods already cover so many bases in unit design, Fatshark appears to have tried making them unique in high mass, high damage and high stagger resistance but that really made them crazy difficult relatively, three times so originally with banners.

1 Like

Most of these nerfs were more than justified. For example the gors used to headbut you for insane damage while being insanely resistant to even cleaving weaponry, while still having 10-20 of them in your face at the same time. Add the old ungors stabbing you behind these beasts and there were very very few builds and strategies that could deal with them easily.

I do agree they probably could have couple specials of their own but they really don’t need many of their old traits back.

2 Likes

You are, they were universally hated by everyone for a multitude of reasons.

1 Like

Undoubtedly the game struggles to find a good loop to allow for good horde control and damage avoidance, but I do strongly feel like the higher mass made the melee combat, and hitting enemies, more individually satisfying. I feel like the adjustments they made to power up the stagger of attacks and pushes was a good decision, but over-tuning their reduction of cleave mass on enemies, I feel, makes the games melee less cathartic.

I am not arguing that they weren’t over-tuned and that they didn’t have to be nerfed, but I do feel they went too far in some areas and lost some fun identity. And I greatly prefer the combat as it is now, rather than before the Winds of Magic update.

Probably? But I feel like the state they are in now, at least on difficulties below Cataclysm, they basically never hit. I like the balance in Darktide where the ranged enemies are very accurate and feel like a real threat, but dodging, sprinting and sliding provides a controllable and highly certain way to mitigate that damage. The fact that the ungor bows often just miss on their own, and are so incredibly fragile that they usually die before firing much more than one shot, making the ability to dodge and parry arrows borderline wasted, isn’t very fun to play against.

They seem to stagger and die incredibly easy from my fights with them, or at least never seem to be as much of a threat as Stormvermin or Chaos Warrior patrols, I’m skeptical on this point, I would rather they be a more menacing foe, even if other aspects like spawn density and banners are adjusted to compensate.

I don’t have any strong opinions on banners, I like the challenge they provide when I play the game and haven’t had any major frustration points with them, that is sort of a separate debate I don’t really care for.

Most of “these” nerfs? The nerfs you just mentioned are ones I agree were needed, such as equalizing their damage numbers, fixing their melee hitboxes, and improving the telegraphing of their attacks. Ones I don’t agree on are removing the Ungors ability to dodge, completely removing their headbutt and kick animations instead of just adjusting its telegraphing, and reducing their cleave resistance so heavily that they feel weightless, floaty, and uninteresting to fight.

Again, I feel the bladed high cleave weapons are a lot less satisfying to use currently, even if they are technically strong or effective, I’m more so referring to game feel and immersion rather than balance.

I feel like a lot of the reasons mentioned are completely separate to my actual discussion points other than the cleave modifier. Equalizing their damage properties, improving their visibility, fixing their hitboxes, improving their attack telegraphing, improving the stagger mechanics and ability to avoid damage, all were excellent and much needed changes.

I just feel combined with the lack of varied weaponry or shields, removed animations, and how incredibly floaty and weightless they feel, it makes them a lot less enjoyable.

At the absolute minimum, I would love to see the Ungors ability to dodge, and some adjusted animations, brought back.

1 Like

wom

Enough said!

1 Like

That’s a bit of an unhelpful tangent, completely off-topic
The major issue with the dlc is the Weave game-mode and the content relative to the price. I still love Beastmen.

Nope, I had to stop to play because the Beastmen were so overtuned they just meant wipe.

If you got a slightly higher ping, the high damage the beastmen could do (including the chip damage) was frustrating beyond any measure

You do realize this is still off-topic yes? I’m not talking about their pre-nerf damage or chip damage, both of which have been resolved.

Well on this i do agree, having to keep a sharper eye out and mix in pushes into the combo´s make things more interesting.

On the other hand, vt2 doesnt have sprinting or sliding and dodging is a very finite resource for melee. Plus the original archers could shoot through their allies with pinpoint precision.

Stormvermin patrols are scarier because they got shields mixed in, normal halberdiers are almost trivial while chaos patrols have always been in a league of their own beyond that.

Goat patrols are often easily trivialized because you see&hear them coming, they´re slow, and it only really takes 1 then very ready teammate with a sniping tool/bomb to neutralize the banner. Then its just fewer but bigger stormvermin halberds running at you. The time when sh*t gets bad is when you got an armored goat horde with multiple waves and multiple banners spawning in and no way to burn through it all fast enough.

I have major gripes with them, its a coin-toss of “can you escape/break them” with the answer being no usually resulting in a lost run while the answer being yes results in a minor inconvenience.

1 Like

Title: “The heavy nerfs to the beastmen faction removed a lot of their identity”…

That is a good point actually, I didn’t recall that they could shoot through other units, which doesn’t occur in Darktide (or at least not without friendly fire). Perhaps if they maintain hordes blocking arrow fire, but boost their accuracy or otherwise make them more threatening, that would free up scenarios with open space allowing you to engage in an impromptu “firefight” as it were whilst allowing you to still freely dodge and parry, since you aren’t otherwise occupied.

Sort of a lighter version of Darktides hybrid combat system that only occurs occasionally, to shake up the gameplay flow a little bit.

Your criticism of banners make sense, and I often find myself in the same experience where its either a minor inconvenience akin to a special you snipe, or combined with a massive obstructing swarm of enemies that body blocks you from the reaching the banner, an extremely obnoxious meat shield with no obvious counter-play beyond brute force.

I completely agree with your assessment of halberdier Stormvermin and Bestigors, one thing I dislike that has occurred over the games lifespan is the diminished threat and weight given to individual enemies, and thus less gameplay moments of back and forth dueling, or encouraging utilization of the games more complex melee combo systems.
It feels like difficulty further and further comes in by just throwing in a bunch of specials or elites with one/two kit ko weapons at you, and having specials be a threat is absolutely good to an extent, but it sort of feels a bit mindless at a certain point if the individual units are so immensely trivialized.

It feels weird to say in what is by and large a horde game, but I do believe careful consideration of power creep in order to keep your enemy fun to fight against is definitely a huge element.

1 Like

when there were beastmen nerfs?

I’ll just throw in that I must be losing my connection with the game because I don’t feel that the Beastmen are worse to fight than Skaven or Norscans. In fact their lack of armour, save Bestigors and Wargors, along with a complete lack of shields makes them, in my opinion, often demolished faster than a fight with the Norscans that includes shield bearers.

I can sympathize with the idea that individual enemies have become trivilized. I may be remembering wrong here but I recall from VT1 that if you don’t have an anti-armour character on the team that could seek out and kill Stormvermins, the party had a serious problem. How far the game should promote specialization as opposed to generalization in builds i something I’ll leave here.

But I think that I would be interested in trying out a version where the damage reduction for armoured enemies was increased.

1 Like

Like 2-3 years ago.

Its because people are talking about topic that is extremely old at this point. Current beastman behave nothing like the ones did at winds of magics launch.

2 Likes

I’ll say the melee weapons without as much cleave like the axes and crowbill are lacking a role when hammers can easily knock elites around along with crowds. I wouldn’t be totally against more difficult-to-cleave beastmen if they were balanced in other ways, but I’m kinda happy with them being less tanky, and higher damage chaos.

If anything the Nurgle guys should be the most difficult to cleave through, and I think they are, it’s just many weapons do cleave through them fairly well in difficulties below cataclysm. In the chaos wastes, both beastmen and chaos dudes are fairly resistant to cleave and stagger on both Legend and Cata, at least until you sufficiently upgrade weapons.

Even with all the changes to beastmen, it seems most players still think they are the most difficult, and it seems to be simply because they do such high damage and are fairly fast.