Yes totaly agree, playing zealot is so frustrating right now. Like i have died already houndrets times with full Thougness, just because out of millions of the enemies i fight at the same time, a zombie dude touched me.
2 Likes
After beginning to play Heresy, yeah that sâŚtuff needs to go.
The game is not balanced past Malice at all I guess.
5 Likes
Iâm not going lie, maybe I just remembered it wrong, but I always thought enemies hitting you did health chip damage. But yah I agree its pretty dumb. IFFF they want to keep it they should make it so it can chip until like 20% hp is left so zealot can actually you knowâŚlike play their kit?
3 Likes
Chip damage is just such a cheap and naff mechanic and for those of us who pride ourselves on not getting hit on higher difficulties it makes taking damage incredibly annoying. Newer players who donât fully grok the mechanics are gonna break controllers/keyboards over this sadist balancing and fans of the 'tide games are just gonna quit.
This plus the recent movement nerfs have gotta go. #bringdodgeback
6 Likes
Itâs a major mechanical difference from what your tutorial beats players over the head with.
Fix either chip damage, or the tutorial.
4 Likes
I agree. There are so many little zombies that spawn directly behind you and take 10+ health in one hit with full toughness on heresy not to mention the range spam.
5 Likes
It negatively affects class mechanics in a way that makes their core kit bad to use. Dunno why thereâs a âTough s*** buttercupâ attitude about this. Itâs not only a correct observation, but genuinely good feedback.
7 Likes
Iâm not a fan of this also. It sucks when youâre on your last leg and your toughness does absolutely nothing to save you from that last hit you couldâve easily survived if it didnât pierce through.
At first I tried not to adapt but now I donât think this mechanics is fun or enjoyable.
5 Likes
Bleedthrough encourages slower, more methodical play. While it also promotes quick reflexes, which makes some tryhards think that people are just griping about making the game easier, there is a lot of damage that is unavoidable (mostly caused by some combination of elites and tons of zombies). Not to mention that short bursts of damage can absolutely tear through your toughness and health bars at Malice already.
While I would normally agree with you, I believe that chip damage does not actually encourage slower and more methodical play contrary to what it would seem. In fact what it does is annoy people even more. Chip damage is irritating most of the time because there are many times with current dodge changes that I do react to the sound and then get wacked anyway because of the tracking 2 feet movement attacks in this game. Not only that but because of the spawn system of this game by the game director it also leads to enemies straight up spawning in cleared rooms or right behind you meaning youâll take chip damage punishment for no reason if youâre a VET trying shoot towards elites and then get wacked from behind. Not only that it fundamentally ruins zealotâs kit.
As you stated there is already a lot of unavoidable damage cough looking at you elites that have fire damage that burns off all your toughness and makes you take 10 damage from it + stagger you for 1 second + burn damage if youâre still inside.
2 Likes
I said it elsewhere as well:
Any single source of damage should go to remaining toughness without hurting HP.
IE: If you have 45 Toughness and take a 50 HP attack; You lose 45 Toughness and the remaining 5 damage is just gone harmlessly.
The NEXT hit, however, goes to HP now that you have 0 Toughness.
Of course; some things should do chip damage:
Being slammed around by a Plague Ogryn (Or whatever the charger is that bashes you around, then throws you)
Being pounced by a Pox Hound.
Etc.
Basically; special attacks.
But any normal attacks should have to deplete Toughness first.
Mostly so Zealots can do their high-risk/reward low-HP playstyle.
5 Likes
Considering how many ways there are to quickly regenerate toughness, that suggestion is way way way too far in the opposite direction. Incremental change would be a better starting point. I still think making melee hits have no bleed through when youâre at 90% or above toughness would be a good starting point.
I know a lot of people feel differently, but I actually really really do not want a return of temp health or similar. Dark Tide has real attrition again and I think thatâs great, theyâve just gone a bit too far with it and need to tweak it to be a touch more forgiving.
6 Likes
The current Toughness gain methods would need to get nerfed a ton to not be invincible in melee combat.
1 Like
I donât know what game yâall are playing but this isnât my experience.
You really have to work hard to keep toughness active, especially when big hordes come in and itâs almost impossible to not get surrounded. This is especially true if there are also ranged enemies.
Feats notwithstanding, there are only two possible sources of Toughness: Coherency and melee kills. Unlike VT2, merely hitting enemies does jack.
My biggest source of frustration, and I suspect this is true for others as well, is when youâve just fought off a horde. You have very little health, but managed to get some toughness back. You think to yourself: âThat was bad, but Iâm still standing. Iâm on 1/3rd Toughness and itâs climbing because Coherency, just need to find a health pack or a Medicae and weâll be good.â
Then some Poxwalker comes up from behind and cheap-shots you, and you realize Toughness is worthless.
This is why I run Wound and Health curios, exclusively. Sure, toughness helps, but the only thing that really matters is health. And it doesnât matter how much toughness youâve got if all it takes is a single melee hit from a single enemy slipping past your guard to down you.
This is also why âNo bleed-through at X% toughnessâ wouldnât work either, because getting curios that increase your toughness would actually be counterproductive. Unless the amount you get from killing enemies or coherency changes with it, increasing max toughness means itâll take longer to hit that âno bleed-throughâ threshold.
3 Likes
the bleedthrough damage on melee through toughness depending on how much toughness you have is actually a feat of balancing genius. the fact that some of you cant see this really shows how awful some community feedback can make a game if developers take some of the ideas spouted from random people with no sense of game balance. i even main zealot and feel that taking this bleedthrough away would completely kill game balance.
1 Like
I honestly canât tell if youâre happy about change or not lol.
Well yeah, stacking all those together is quite potent though. Zealot can be passive healing 5% every second on top of coherency and killing, or be getting a whopping 75% toughness DR (no idea how this stacks with his aura) on crit, which can have very high uptime with the right setup. Then thereâs also that blessing that restores like 12.5% toughness on cleaving multiple enemies. So yeah I think the means for pretty massive toughness regen is definitely present currently.
I really donât like these âtoughness is worthlessâ statements. Itâs literally damage reduction against chip. You had 50% toughness when your got hit? Cool you took 50% less health damage than you would have without it. In what world is that âworthlessâ just because it doesnât prevent ALL health damage?
Iâm actually not sure, but I strongly suspect killing and coherency are % based. If anyone knows for sure Iâd love to know. At very least clearly % toughness feats clearly scale with your max toughness, as does toughness DR in practice.
Anyway as I play more my opinion on how hard they should pull back on chip damage may well change, but for now I definitely donât hate the core concept, Iâd just like a little more margin for error than currently, then see how that feels.
As a side note, the suggestion we were replying to was suggesting that if you had even 1 toughness you would take 0 health damage from melee attacks, surely we can at least agree thereâs enough toughness regen in the game to make that pretty overpowered.
4 Likes
You probably didnât encounter the âgain toughness on multi hitâ traits some weapons come with.
Some other things that work together are also absolutely wild. The standard group toughness regen, plus ogryns buff to it, plus Zealots ramped up toughness regen during enemy proximity. And you get your melee kill toughness ontop of that.
Vets 25% flat plus 25% over time per elite kill also gets more bonkers the higher the difficulty gets. (The toughness DR on Zealot might also get alot more valuable whenever we are allowed to roll properties and actually get more crit on our weapons.)
All of this is fine right now, because toughness is not like thp. You cant hit trade and have to play the âblock, dodge, avoid lethal melee encountersâ game. If it was like THP lots of this stuff would need to go and toughness would actually have to be hard to come by. (Which would in turn require range mobs to get a touch up.)
Iam not saying that the bleed through numbers wont need touching. Iam saying that we need bleed through so this game so there is a semblance of difficulty in this game.
(Iam also rather sure that people just donât use medpacks when the team needs them, which will get better over time. Some gents just love to bring those back to base, or hug them while they roll around in their own blood.)
2 Likes
If Toughness actually worked like this Iâd be a lot happier.
Right now it seems like Toughness is just âIf you have some, you have loads of damage reduction. (but not 100%) if you donât you take full.â
This is why I say toughness is worthless. The only amount of toughness that matters is the last point, and if youâre low enough on health even that doesnât matter.
Iâm getting 5 points per kill, regardless of enemy type. Coherency regen is very quick with 4 people, but thereâs a second or so delay if you take damage before the regen starts.
1 Like
I feel like theyâd have to go back to the drawing board with some perks if the chip damage got removed, especially in zealotâs case. Taking chip damage is the only thing keeping the 97% toughness damage reduction from crit setup from being OP
1 Like