Yes totaly agree, playing zealot is so frustrating right now. Like i have died already houndrets times with full Thougness, just because out of millions of the enemies i fight at the same time, a zombie dude touched me.
After beginning to play Heresy, yeah that s…tuff needs to go.
The game is not balanced past Malice at all I guess.
I’m not going lie, maybe I just remembered it wrong, but I always thought enemies hitting you did health chip damage. But yah I agree its pretty dumb. IFFF they want to keep it they should make it so it can chip until like 20% hp is left so zealot can actually you know…like play their kit?
Chip damage is just such a cheap and naff mechanic and for those of us who pride ourselves on not getting hit on higher difficulties it makes taking damage incredibly annoying. Newer players who don’t fully grok the mechanics are gonna break controllers/keyboards over this sadist balancing and fans of the 'tide games are just gonna quit.
This plus the recent movement nerfs have gotta go. #bringdodgeback
It’s a major mechanical difference from what your tutorial beats players over the head with.
Fix either chip damage, or the tutorial.
I agree. There are so many little zombies that spawn directly behind you and take 10+ health in one hit with full toughness on heresy not to mention the range spam.
It negatively affects class mechanics in a way that makes their core kit bad to use. Dunno why there’s a “Tough s*** buttercup” attitude about this. It’s not only a correct observation, but genuinely good feedback.
I’m not a fan of this also. It sucks when you’re on your last leg and your toughness does absolutely nothing to save you from that last hit you could’ve easily survived if it didn’t pierce through.
At first I tried not to adapt but now I don’t think this mechanics is fun or enjoyable.
Bleedthrough encourages slower, more methodical play. While it also promotes quick reflexes, which makes some tryhards think that people are just griping about making the game easier, there is a lot of damage that is unavoidable (mostly caused by some combination of elites and tons of zombies). Not to mention that short bursts of damage can absolutely tear through your toughness and health bars at Malice already.
While I would normally agree with you, I believe that chip damage does not actually encourage slower and more methodical play contrary to what it would seem. In fact what it does is annoy people even more. Chip damage is irritating most of the time because there are many times with current dodge changes that I do react to the sound and then get wacked anyway because of the tracking 2 feet movement attacks in this game. Not only that but because of the spawn system of this game by the game director it also leads to enemies straight up spawning in cleared rooms or right behind you meaning you’ll take chip damage punishment for no reason if you’re a VET trying shoot towards elites and then get wacked from behind. Not only that it fundamentally ruins zealot’s kit.
As you stated there is already a lot of unavoidable damage cough looking at you elites that have fire damage that burns off all your toughness and makes you take 10 damage from it + stagger you for 1 second + burn damage if you’re still inside.
I said it elsewhere as well:
Any single source of damage should go to remaining toughness without hurting HP.
IE: If you have 45 Toughness and take a 50 HP attack; You lose 45 Toughness and the remaining 5 damage is just gone harmlessly.
The NEXT hit, however, goes to HP now that you have 0 Toughness.
Of course; some things should do chip damage:
Being slammed around by a Plague Ogryn (Or whatever the charger is that bashes you around, then throws you)
Being pounced by a Pox Hound.
Basically; special attacks.
But any normal attacks should have to deplete Toughness first.
Mostly so Zealots can do their high-risk/reward low-HP playstyle.
Considering how many ways there are to quickly regenerate toughness, that suggestion is way way way too far in the opposite direction. Incremental change would be a better starting point. I still think making melee hits have no bleed through when you’re at 90% or above toughness would be a good starting point.
I know a lot of people feel differently, but I actually really really do not want a return of temp health or similar. Dark Tide has real attrition again and I think that’s great, they’ve just gone a bit too far with it and need to tweak it to be a touch more forgiving.
The current Toughness gain methods would need to get nerfed a ton to not be invincible in melee combat.
I don’t know what game y’all are playing but this isn’t my experience.
You really have to work hard to keep toughness active, especially when big hordes come in and it’s almost impossible to not get surrounded. This is especially true if there are also ranged enemies.
Feats notwithstanding, there are only two possible sources of Toughness: Coherency and melee kills. Unlike VT2, merely hitting enemies does jack.
My biggest source of frustration, and I suspect this is true for others as well, is when you’ve just fought off a horde. You have very little health, but managed to get some toughness back. You think to yourself: “That was bad, but I’m still standing. I’m on 1/3rd Toughness and it’s climbing because Coherency, just need to find a health pack or a Medicae and we’ll be good.”
Then some Poxwalker comes up from behind and cheap-shots you, and you realize Toughness is worthless.
This is why I run Wound and Health curios, exclusively. Sure, toughness helps, but the only thing that really matters is health. And it doesn’t matter how much toughness you’ve got if all it takes is a single melee hit from a single enemy slipping past your guard to down you.
This is also why “No bleed-through at X% toughness” wouldn’t work either, because getting curios that increase your toughness would actually be counterproductive. Unless the amount you get from killing enemies or coherency changes with it, increasing max toughness means it’ll take longer to hit that ‘no bleed-through’ threshold.
the bleedthrough damage on melee through toughness depending on how much toughness you have is actually a feat of balancing genius. the fact that some of you cant see this really shows how awful some community feedback can make a game if developers take some of the ideas spouted from random people with no sense of game balance. i even main zealot and feel that taking this bleedthrough away would completely kill game balance.
I honestly can’t tell if you’re happy about change or not lol.
Well yeah, stacking all those together is quite potent though. Zealot can be passive healing 5% every second on top of coherency and killing, or be getting a whopping 75% toughness DR (no idea how this stacks with his aura) on crit, which can have very high uptime with the right setup. Then there’s also that blessing that restores like 12.5% toughness on cleaving multiple enemies. So yeah I think the means for pretty massive toughness regen is definitely present currently.
I really don’t like these “toughness is worthless” statements. It’s literally damage reduction against chip. You had 50% toughness when your got hit? Cool you took 50% less health damage than you would have without it. In what world is that “worthless” just because it doesn’t prevent ALL health damage?
I’m actually not sure, but I strongly suspect killing and coherency are % based. If anyone knows for sure I’d love to know. At very least clearly % toughness feats clearly scale with your max toughness, as does toughness DR in practice.
Anyway as I play more my opinion on how hard they should pull back on chip damage may well change, but for now I definitely don’t hate the core concept, I’d just like a little more margin for error than currently, then see how that feels.
As a side note, the suggestion we were replying to was suggesting that if you had even 1 toughness you would take 0 health damage from melee attacks, surely we can at least agree there’s enough toughness regen in the game to make that pretty overpowered.
You probably didn’t encounter the “gain toughness on multi hit” traits some weapons come with.
Some other things that work together are also absolutely wild. The standard group toughness regen, plus ogryns buff to it, plus Zealots ramped up toughness regen during enemy proximity. And you get your melee kill toughness ontop of that.
Vets 25% flat plus 25% over time per elite kill also gets more bonkers the higher the difficulty gets. (The toughness DR on Zealot might also get alot more valuable whenever we are allowed to roll properties and actually get more crit on our weapons.)
All of this is fine right now, because toughness is not like thp. You cant hit trade and have to play the “block, dodge, avoid lethal melee encounters” game. If it was like THP lots of this stuff would need to go and toughness would actually have to be hard to come by. (Which would in turn require range mobs to get a touch up.)
Iam not saying that the bleed through numbers wont need touching. Iam saying that we need bleed through so this game so there is a semblance of difficulty in this game.
(Iam also rather sure that people just don’t use medpacks when the team needs them, which will get better over time. Some gents just love to bring those back to base, or hug them while they roll around in their own blood.)
If Toughness actually worked like this I’d be a lot happier.
Right now it seems like Toughness is just “If you have some, you have loads of damage reduction. (but not 100%) if you don’t you take full.”
This is why I say toughness is worthless. The only amount of toughness that matters is the last point, and if you’re low enough on health even that doesn’t matter.
I’m getting 5 points per kill, regardless of enemy type. Coherency regen is very quick with 4 people, but there’s a second or so delay if you take damage before the regen starts.
I feel like they’d have to go back to the drawing board with some perks if the chip damage got removed, especially in zealot’s case. Taking chip damage is the only thing keeping the 97% toughness damage reduction from crit setup from being OP