Toughness Bleed-through feels AWFUL

So apparently there’s a minimum 10% toughness bleed through, so even if you have max toughness you take some health damage if hit with melee.

This really ruins the feel of the game for me, especially as Zealot, as it makes toughness feel like almost an irrelevant mechanic. Managing toughness, toughness regen should be what enables a zealot to play at low health. Saltspyre’s Zealot class in VT2 could run around with 1 health because its talents enabled higher temp health generation, so as long as you kept attacking and charging you’d not die to small chip damage.

Here though, as a Zealot, if you get down to 1 hp (which is quite common with the passive proccing that saves you from death at 1 hp, plus you’re encouraged to play at low health for stacks) then you will die in 1 melee hit. 100%. It doesnt matter how much toughness regen you have, one melee hit will kill you. The whole point of classes that get damage boosts at low health is that if you keep fighting you can survive by your attacks building up a “shield”. Now though its so easy to take just a single tiny bit of chip damage (which toughness should prevent really) that you’re forced to keep your health close to max where possible, which means avoiding melee combat where you can. As a melee class.

The entire point of Toughness I thought was to serve as the buffer whereby it was what made you feel Tanky. Yes, stamina/dodging/blocking are all incredibly important, but most classes feel the same here and your tankiness is more based on your weapon choice than your class. Zealot was a tanky melee because it had better options for regenerating toughness and thus could survive the occasional chip damage in melee.

Health is your reservoir for mistakes. Every hit on your health damage is permanent and can only be restored by medikit or medicae station. Putting yourself intentionally in melee is now a far higher risk, and if you don’t have a build or playstyle which enables incredibly safe dodging/blocking at the expense of anything else then you’re putting yourself at risk.

This mechanic just makes Zealot and Ogryn feel far too risky, as you are now far far more vulnerable to just dying from random chip damage that your toughness should prevent. It makes all those toughness regen talents feel worthless. If you can take 20 hits in a row at max toughness before you die anyway from the damage which penetrates it, then it almost doesnt matter how much toughness regen you have.

The only way I can feel this mechanic would work is if there are some kind of mechanic for characters to slowly regen lost health over a long period of time without using medic items, like the natural bond neck from VT2 (which was pretty awful) but it feels like the limited number of medikits and med stations is intentional so that the difficulty is balanced in only ever being allowed to make a finite number of mistakes.

Whilst there is no way to avoid the bleed through getting into melee is always going to feel like the wrong decision when you could instead have a build that kills things at range.

Bleed through imo should only be a thing at 50% toughness or lower, or even higher values, just not at 100%. When you’re on max toughness you should just feel that you can always take that first hit in any situation, otherwise there is nothing to distinguish the tankiness between classes. The Zealots Charge restores 50% tougness - if toughness bleed through only happened under 50% then it would mean if your damage shield procced and you were left on 1 health, you enter a fight for survival by charging and then using tanky regen talents to keep your toughness over 50%, so you could always survive one single tiny melee hit.

It feels absolute trash to be a 1 health Zealot on fire with rage and doing lots of damage, knowing that a fly coughing in your general vicinity will kill you even if your toughness bar is maxed.

47 Likes

I wouldn’t even care about the chip damage being fatal if it weren’t for the fact that it feels like there is always a poxwalker behind you at all times. I don’t remember this ever being an issue in Vermintide 2, though maybe it was? I just felt like I always knew where skaven and chaos were coming from, yet in Darktide I go through a room, run into a group of guys, start fighting them, and then I’m sudden stabbed in the back by some random f-----g enemy. Every. Single. Time.

13 Likes

I feel this is partially to do with the Sound Alert.

In VT2 there was a very audible, very clear “whoosh” noise when an enemy was behind you and ramping up an attack. Now I believe this exists fine in Darktide but for whatever reason it’s either far less audible or happens a lot closer to when the attack lands.

I have a lot of hours in VT2 and found I could almost always avoid being stabbed in the back by stray rats because of that whoosh alert, it was muscle memory. I keep my ears peeled for the Darktide equivalent but for whatever reason it just feels far harder to react to and I take far too many backstabs from those fast, stray mobs. It feels like the mobs run faster and attack more directly than vermintide rats too, though this may just be a mental thing.

Tweaking the “backstab alert” might be one way of alleviating the frustration of being the low health zealot.

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I also think the chip damage through toughness needs to go. It is counter-intuitive and there is very little reason to put this kind of pressure on players when individual healing is basically non-existent.

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I feel very much the same as OP, I get the idea of “death by a thousand cuts”, but please don’t make us lose the last hit point if our toughness isn’t fully broken.

Turn dynamic audio on high, that helped me a lot

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Bleed through damage just should never be lethal. HP cannot be lowered to 0 unless toughness is 0.

Bam, fixed.

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There’s no need for bleed-through damage to be a thing in normal play. Maybe for snipers and exploders, and that’s OK.

Because, contrary to VT2, we don’t have completely busted ways of regenerating toughness. They made absolutely sure of that. So why make toughness an even worse mechanic ?

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100% agree

Without the bleed through the game would become trivial very quick and melee combat would take overhand as it is effectivly a super charged lifesteal.

Maybe a good compromise would be to give the Zealot a higher threshold as a Class Passive when the bleed through starts to happen, maybe between 80% - 90% Toughness.

On difficulty 4 (which I expect to be the actual endgame difficulty, like Legend in VT2), if you get sneezed on, 100 toughness points are gone in an instant. That’s the Psyker’s baseline toughness.

It’s not gonna trivialize anything… It will just make Diff 4 and 5 slightly more accessible.

1 Like

I’ve been thinking about this problem quite a bit as I’ve been leveling up my Zealot. I think removing bleed through entirely as a few have suggested could easily be too far. The basic mechanic where the bleed through damage scales to your current % toughness seems good to me, where it goes too far is dropping this scaling to have guaranteed 10% bleed through between 90-100% toughness.

I would recommend they remove this and allow it to scale all the way to 100% toughness, so at 95% toughness you’d take 5% bleed through, at 100% toughness you take no bleed through. This would allow you the occasional single hit but not allow you to fully tank with your toughness bar when taking multiple instances of damage close together. They could also grant elites some guaranteed bleed through damage so those enemies don’t become too much less threatening.

I think that would be a conservative change that wouldn’t undermine the general purpose of the system currently in place.

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The suggestion that you’re making seems almost entirely pointless to me. The issue with bleed through isn’t that you can’t take any hits at all, it’s that it makes melee unreasonably punishing. Nobody really cares if the veteran takes a bit of chip damage here and there, and your suggestion here is largely aimed at a minimizing the impact of this system on the group already least impacted.

The problem here is that any people simply don’t agree with the purpose of the system to begin with, so attempts to preserve it are antithetical to what they’re looking for. The bleed through system makes melee even more punishing than it already is and at high levels it’s very punishing. This decision absolutely reeks of a mechanism intended to punish fringe playstyles that the best players are capable of which ultimately sees a significantly worse game experience for average players.

It’s a bad system and it’s not worth trying to salvage. It should be removed and they should completely rethink for what reason they put it in the game.

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Yeah, honestly this has ruined the game for me. Playing a 30 zealot at high difficulty is just super unfun now. No matter how I build/play the class, eventually I’ll go down to poxwalker chip damage. This mechanical change makes no sense, especially for how most of the Zealot’s abilities and Feats are centered around Toughness tanking or playing at low hp, which has now been invalidated by this system. What’s the point of the class now? I really hope they reconsider this, it’s just not fun to play now.

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Me tuffness not workin like it yoused 2, can’ protec the LiL’Uns 'Ny More.

As an Ogryn main i agree. half of my feats are about toughness regen and increasing synergy, It defeats the purpose of many classes feats. difficulty 4 is now not playable. chip damage needs to be removed. having a toughness system without chip dmg gives the player some breathing room. the game was at a nice difficulty ramp before this change.
I was considering Darktide as my personal game of the year before this change, if this is still in by launch i will be refunding.

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I play a Veteran main and i basically cannot go in to melee after the change.
On a lvl 3, i just got swamped by around 10 enemies, block to my limit whilst my allies come to aid me but due to the chipping after around 5 times of this cycle i am just dead and useless.
Previously i was playing a medium range melee assist to 2 Zelots and a Ogryn but now even with my feat to boost there toughness is now pointless and i have to run up to save someone or help leading to me getting dying over and over again.

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Honestly, lethal damage should be impossible if any toughness remains.
IE: If you have 45 toughness & 1 HP and take 50 damage from a hit; you only lose all Toughness.
But the next hit will down/kill you, now that Toughness is at 0.

If that messes with balance too much; make it a Priest perk. To allow people to build into that style of low-HP play.

Made an account to agree with this point, as it stands Zealot and Ogryn feel much worse than the closed beta, though it affects all classes when they have to defend themselves or enter melee. It’s particularly frustrating cause Zealot has a passive to survive on almost no HP once every 90 seconds, but with chip damage that means that a single unblocked melee attack puts you back down once it’s gone.

I seriously don’t get Fatshark’s mindset on this, but after learning from some VT2 vets who’ve been there since launch, it seems that they get an idea in their head every once in a while that the community has to drag them to reverse, like chip damage beastmen or arrows being unblockable. I hope that Fatshark will apply community feedback faster than in VT2, cause I don’t want to wait 4 years for the game to be as playable as VT2. It’s particularly frustrating that many of these issues were fixed in VT2, but have reappeared in DT as though the team learned nothing from the past 4 years of community feedback and development.

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It’s really terrible. Not sure what they were thinking.

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we have legit gone from 40 hours in the last week to just not playing beacuse 3/4 of our team just keep getting murdered.

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Made an account here solely so I could say this feature of toughness is terrible. No bleedthrough please, it really is bad enough in solo queue when people pick up grims without team’s consent (due to the grim also “bleeding” your hp).

But at least I could try to rely on my toughness to function as my health while my actual health was being seeped away from a grim and its measly bonus points.

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