My boy Bardin’s payed dlc has been trash since release, it’s nice to see OE overtuned.
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Well it’s a good thing that OE is more than capable of holding his own even when thick in the action.
Don’t forget that he also have a melee weapon as well, as well as multiple buffs to his melee capabilities. Those are there for a reason
Drakegun is pretty great with OE. My favorite build for him now is Armour Piercing Slugs + Full Head of Steam + Gromril-Plated Shot + Drakegun. It is fun as hell. Because of Armour Piercing Slugs Drakegun melts hordes almost instantly and Gromril-Plated Shot + Full Head of Steam can take of the whole patrol or a monster in seconds on Legend with just one potion. I usually play him with 1H Hammer and Piston Power on top of that just because of that nice sound of heavy attacks. 
Flamethrower was always good, Pistols are still where they was.
Huh? Doesn’t drakegun already have like a 50 enemy target cap? I can’t imagine taking that up to 51 really changes much. Leading shots was kinda cool previously for reliable Hunter procs with short bursts of drakegun. I’m not really seeing the synergy anymore though I do intend to try combined arms + EP + superior gaskets for +42% power Drake gun, but not having an answer to overheat slowdown is kinda rough.
yeah because you can save 3 bombs when you dont face a big horde but a rather scattered one
and then just throw 3 and delete every difficulty spike
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Isn’t that though what the RV already can do?
he can throw 2 and without the talent which gives 2 bomb effects so yeah OE is more effective with bombs
He can throw 2 with ease though, and in your scenario OE has invested 2 talents for that, that could have gone to other buffs (personally I prefer ablative armor).
I agree with a change to the timer, just saying this though.
Also, if RV is running the talent that drops bombs and potions, are we really sure he won’t spawn more bombs on cata in that time anyway?
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That depends on how the distribution is. Let us assume you encounter 100 specials during a Cataclysm run. For 20 of these specials, you get either a bomb or a potion. If the distribution here is 50/50, then you will get about 10 bombs while Ordnance gives you about 11 bombs if we consider a 15 minute run. Numbers can be up- or downscaled depending on your estimated run time and number of encountered specials.
But this is only if it is really 50/50. If the distribution is based on sub-categories, it will slightly change the stats. There are three potions and two bombs. So the split would be 40/60 and then you get 8 bombs. So, in general it will be less bombs. Though Ordnance also let’s you start with three bombs already. So bomb power is definetely higher for Ordnance. If you go down in difficulty, the difference will only become more apparent.
There is also the issue with “burst” damage. The double bomb effect aside, you can throw three bombs in six seconds (for reference you can shot three torpedos in 10 seconds).
I think talking about the torpedo as a bomb really muddles the conversation though! - as close as the comparison can be - especially as there’s really no “3 torpedoes in 3 seconds” if you’re clutching. Also I’m sure taking a bomb out lighting it and throwing it takes at least 2 seconds. It may sound like nitpicking but I’ve died to that more times than to anything else in engi clutches.
Also, you’re confusing the two different talent’s effects. The extra 3 bombs come from bombardier, not ordnance, so as I’ve stated that’s two talents worth of effects, and if you’re really throwing them all at the same time is going to take a while to get that up (on lower difficulties it’s nothing, but on cata I’ve again had some troubles if the situation was dire enough that I found myself out of bombs)
More importantly, the torpedo is a very strong weapon, but not without tradeoffs, so you’re really talking about a peak moment where the engineer is using every hoarded and chosen tool at its disposal withot stopping to consider the downsides.
I expect Ordnance CD will increase, but I’m also afraid this discussions pose the risk of nerfing the engineer too much (as would be the case for perilous overclock): both will probably get tweaked, but nerf them too much and the engineer looses a way to get the ulti back (which I think it’s needed as Hopper is on the weaker side now) and throw bombs to prevent a dangerous situation from escalating.
Likewise the only viable nerf I can see to the torpedo is a reduction in ammunition (a reduction in power could work as well, assuming you can still reach its breakpoints through properties, but it’ll be less effective, and you’re probably making some IBs angry).
TL:DR: Generating bombs, perilous overclock (that might just be me though) and torpedoes are the best thing to happen to the engineer, especially since the base ulti has been nerfed. Nerfing these should be done with real care. As I see it:
Ordnance CD could increase. They could also apply reduced or normal FF instead of removing it, I guess.
Perilous Overclock could be tweaked to give less ulti (or have less or no crit power, although that would be a sizable nerf in itself) or the damage could scale, but that only if they apply some QoL to it (I have created a topic with some suggestions)
Torpedo: possibly reduced ammo.
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Discussing both at the same time might become confusing, I agree. Damage-wise though they can be discussed together. As far as I am aware Torpedo is using the bomb damage profile. Also, 3 torpedos in 10 seconds and three bombs in 6 seconds (which fits with your values). I am just saying that Torpedos are better bombs and if to much bombs seem to be an issue then …
Yea, I think I confused them.
Torpedo doesn’t really have a downside. The reload is fast enough (only 4 seconds) and has zero slowdown so that I see people regularly reload during hordes and triggered patrols on Cataclysm. And despite popular belief, missing long range isnt a trade-off either with the weapon being high effective in close and mid-range and only about two or three enemies which could even damage you from a far.
You could solve this by a melee trait rework which would also be more interesting.
Don’t change power. You don’t even need to change ammunition. But FS should make ammo traits not working with it. And it should get either a longer reload OR a heavy slowdown while reloading. Both changes would keep the panic button intact. But you would have an one-time panic button in dangerous situation like every other career in the game, instead of a panic button each 5 seconds. You can then reload easily after the pressure situation. The Trollhammer Torpedo should really be a weapon that can only be reloaded in calm phases.
If Ordnance is increased and Trollhammer reload adjusted to make sense, the removal of friendly fire is not necessary anymore.
I don’t entirely agree with considering the torpedo an easy to reload weapon, but I could see it applying slowdown.
Is it even possible to outdamage engi after the patch? Whenever an engie joins the player gets almost all the green circles regardless who are they. I feel SoT vibes.
I’ve been outdamaged, yes. I tend to play more conservatively than most though (i’ll treasure those bombs and I won’t shoot torpedo unless I really need it or it’s safe and worth it to do so), that might be why I’ve never had a complaint about making the games too easy, even when I got the circles
After finally trying Engi, the bomb talents feel like having a second ult.
I don’t think the talent is a problem, I haven’t ran into a lot of OE players, the ones I run into tend to just die.
When I used him it felt nice, I mean I normally don’t explore the maps, it’s just point A to point B as fast as possible for me so I barely ever got to carry multiple bombs.
If anything the new superior gaskets makes me not want to use the crank gun so I can keep the power buff.
Since they admitted they wanted OE to be able to clutch more I believe this is a step in the right direction, at the end it still feels like he is the weakest out of the DLC careers.
I cant play a cata game without one anymore, only seen one not use the trollhammer but he had bombs for days all the same. And these OE´s did not die since any bomb just kinda demolishes any armored horde while gattling takes care of pure chaff with ease.
Having played it myself i also cant help but feel its very powerful, even without torpedo.
…
And i do not believe the goal was clutching more, i believe the goal was a better reward/risk ratio.
At the moment i wish i just could ban OE`s to join without having to take bardin myself. It definitely destroyed the fun even more than BW ever has done.
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I do not quite agree on this, peak BW had both lingering + famished + double walk in the same build. I recall seeing them just turbo rush down the map setting everything on fire without stopping, and everything did really just die. Current OE can make hordes, patrols and monsters trivial but he cant just rush in that manner.
At worst for BW i was in on a team on Yenlui, 3 of us made it to the main elf ruins, the BW was inside the ruined temple where the final event is. And started&did most of it before we got there.