I barely play with DS myself, but whatever, i am done arguing with you, i’ll just wait till devs nerf everything like you want and game will become unplayable piece of trash.
I remember making a post some time before havoc was ever a thought to the game highlighting that this was a serious long term issue for the game’s life span and it largely got ignored bc smite and inferno staff take too long to kill anything, and perilous combustion required elite kills, and psyker totally can’t kill every elite.
Glad someone’s reviving this though. Being able to insta-kill every elite on screen is bad for balance, but it’s far worse when you can screen clear by just pressing m1.
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Maybe go touch some grass dude?
If someone is talking about nerfing everthing here its only one person; you.
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I think invalidating the entire game by pressing 2 buttons in a general direction of the bad man and everything dying isn’t particularly very fun.
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Well, Besides the fact that cleave exists, We’ve been using melee weapons to kill hordes since 2015 hombre. It’s not rocket science.
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I’ve seen this way too often in Psyker. There’s a concerning amount of people whom only use psyker with smite and nothing else, likely from the fact they have no fundamentals to play but that. Psyker in general is a crutch class, the staves and bubble can outright just invalidate the entire game with not much input.
There, edited for you.
It is you who thinks that anything good is win button.
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You wished.
Is it? I think twice before taking it to Havoc40 where mobs have extra defence + healing buffs. I think I would even take Crusher or TH instead of the RS to that. I won’t even mention DS Mk IV or Mk II.
kill dueling swords, blunt dueling swords, roundhouse kick dueling swords into the concrete, slam dunk a dueling sword user into the trash can, disassemble filthy dueling swords, defecate onto dueling swords sharpening oil, launch dueling swords into the sun, stir fry dueling swords in a wok, toss dueling swords into active volcanoes, urinate into dueling sword forges, judo throw dueling swords into a wood chipper, exterminatus dueling swords from orbit
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Well one could reasonably argue that the difficulty appropriate for the player is the one they succeed at. If certain weapons allow them to succeed at that level of difficulty, that level of difficulty is therefore appropriate for them. Of course, up to a certain point.
However, if (as you seem to be implying) the level of difficulty appropriate for their skill is the skill level at which you can succeed regardless of what weapon or build you use, then even most sweatlords in this game are playing beyond their level. At some point everyone runs into resistance they can’t manage as they move away from the meta and non-cookiecutter builds.
The real issue with the game, at the highest difficulties, is really that it brings out how huge the discrepancy is between meta vs non-meta builds. It shows that compared to the lower-end of weapons and talents, some weapons and talents are too good, and others are too bad compared to the highest tiers, which forces meta builds on the majority of players, which ends up reducing enjoyment of the game because there’s a lack of variety in play styles at Havoc +35. Almost everyone in Havoc +30 is running Chorus, Voice of Command+plasma gun, and Bubble+Inferno.
Ultimately the solution is going to be substantially more complex than simply nerfing both special abilities like Chorus or Bubble, or nerfing dueling sword, plasma gun, or inferno staff (and the talents and abilities that synergize with them). Bottom and mid-tier weapons need to be improved. Talents that compete with the meta talents need to be buffed to create more player choice. Enemy numbers and behavior need to be adjusted to compensate for changes to player and talent mechanics, etc. etc.
So threads like these should really be called “overall balance issues”, as they are far from restricted to a handful of high dmg or stagger AOE abilities. It also covers how various talents affect the weapons, how these same talent affect group dynamics and playstyles, and how they interact player group composition, with the number, density, and types of enemies. I’m tired of reading these brainless “duhh nerf plasmagun/duelingsword/infernostaff” threads by people who seem incapable of considering the broader ramifications on player experience and balance.
Inb4 someone quotes Joseph Goebbels.
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And it still wouldn’t be enough.
Havoc should not be considered in balance discussions whatsoever. There’s an entire game mode that people actually like playing, because they don’t have to interact with party finder, that’s been left in the dirt. The biggest threat to you in Havoc is getting shot by a Dreg Stalker.
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Every difficulty and game mode played at level 30 should be considered when trying to balance weapons and talents (and of course any discussion about balance must necessarily also involve considering whether to adjust enemy health, damage, behavior etc.). The idea that a game mode actually played should just be ignored is selfish and ridiculous.
I would not go so far.
I would simply say that they ruin the fun for the other players… at least they ruined my fun. (yes “ruined” because I play actually something else that I enjoy a lot… even if it is hard (already 3 hard death (with loosing everything))
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Weapons and classes weren’t balanced around modded difficulty in VT2 and people still play it to this day. We need a reasonable baseline of balance.
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Melee weapons against unarmoured horde - All horde effective, given right moveset
Melee weapons against armour - Huge difference between them
So then people just go anti-armour
You either bring in line down to Rashad, Heavy sword etc which require more heavy swings or meet somewhere in the middle i.e. DS down, then other weapons up.
Maybe Rashad is a example of good balance. No one ever said it was OP, not too hard and not too easy against carapace.
Balance should be around the most played game mode. Quickplay. Most people play Quickplay, most do not go through the trouble of party finder, discord hunting, msg steam friends etc. They just want in and out to run any build without inspection.
Quickplay is just full of dog modifiers now and left out. But Havoc gets the more interesting modifiers like ammo reduction, cranial, blight, fading and some bosses. Some of them could of been implemented into quickplay.
A good player with relic blade will easily outdamage a dueling sword, due to having better crowd control, horde clear, and competitive single target dps. Crusher can be safer, and thunder hammer has a better burst, but relic blade will just kill everything altogether far better than either weapons mentioned.
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havoc has boosted enemies to a degree that to make something “havoc viable” to pubs you have to make it extremely overpowered for aurics. You tune something to be able to horde clear without a wrath blessing, it is now mulching auric hordes. You tune something to kill twins or monstrosities in a short and reasonable time frame, it now destroys crushers and normal bosses.
If you plan to balance around havoc, you should just balance havoc’s various modifiers instead. Balancing things to be havoc 40 viable is how we got infinite ammo taunt rumbler ogryns blowing everything up fighting multiple bosses at the same time and not losing any health. That stuff is a nuisance in havoc 40, but it makes auric completely unplayable.
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