True, also some people really follow the mentality of “No Fun allowed”.
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IDK, it seems like the most calls for “nerfs” are for the most broken OPAF stuff, while the same ppl are simultaneously calling for buffs to the forgotten weapons, the stuff that didn’t survive the power creep and density of a post #13 game world.
At the same time most “don’t nerf or you’ll kill (casual) fun” calls seem to want to turn, or rather keep the highest diffs casual, turn|keep VT2 Cataclysm into Legend. People didn’t seem to play VT2 Cata until they were ready, here it’s the next illogical step from Malice one you hit L30.
If 4 casuals and semi-casual can usually breeze through the hardest base content (ignore havoc), then the hardest content isn’t hard enough, and one of the reasons is likely a couple of broken outliers, e.g. DS4.
It’s a hollow victory if the end-game isn’t a meaningful challenge: one where you have to use your wits, your skill, your team, the terrain and the resources to earn a win, and I’d argue that drives away more players than curbing the power creep.
There has to be a meaningful end-game, and this ain’t it, hasn’t been in a long while and really even pre #13 it wasn’t (despite the nostalgia goggles) as the Vet (dev class) for instance was bonkers busted.
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No thank you for me
Ammo reduction is absolutely bad (I enjoy the no ammo pickup, but not this one), cranial etc. All of this belong to havoc and should stay there.
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Yes and no. If you face big enough elite wave with mixed horde, bosses, the DR and self-heal modifiers on, then the relic blade is likely to overheat before you finish off the wave. Especially if your team dps is lacking / someone is down.
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I mean let’s assume the most extreme case of them all
DS and Knife don’t exist
Flamer / Inferno staff no longer exist
Gold toughness is not broken OP / no longer exists
CDR talents no longer exist
Ogryn gets nerfed
Plasma no longer exists
Would the game really be bad?
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People will just use next best weapons and talents, like combat axes, powers swords, force swords, relic blade, bolter, voidblast staff, and right here on this forum we will get another wave of whining about nerfing every new meta.
Ogryn goes back to oblivion, it was a rare, compared to other classes, to see him in games before rework, people outright refused to take ogryn players into havoc(Havoc and Ogryns! :: Warhammer 40,000: Darktide The Mourningstar - General Discussions).
And games will be longer, now that everyone do way less damage,back off more, because less protected.
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Complete karkin’ nonsense.
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At the rate Fatshark is going, it would take another entire year to nerf that supposed new meta so you got time.
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Wasn’t that already the case with past complaints about knife players?
As soon as DS solidified its place in the meta, the same people who constantly complained about knive’s “free” mobility switched to complaining about DS, yet nowadays you rarely see anyone mentioning that knife should be nerfed.
Top players will always complain about meta, and I agree with Downer. I also find it ironic, because the same people tend to complain about the majority of the playerbase being bad. They look down on bad players, but they also don’t want the same players using “safe” builds where they can more or less contribute to the team effort at the highest difficulty.
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Yeah, and? It doesn’t validate his strawman nor does it mean the knife is not still OP, it’s just that DS4 is OP++. It’s just that now the DS4 basically replaced the knife, it told it to hold its corpse-beer. OFC ppl are gonna mostly talk about the OPAF++ vs ye plain olde OP+.
The majority of the player base IS …not great, all these factors are not mutually exclusive and the whole endgame balance has many facets to it.
There are plenty of very good things and then there are some outliers that are way, WAY above the rest: e.g. knife, DS4, Shouts . And again, remove DS4 from the equation and knife and shouts for instance are still as OP as they’ve ever been.
So as far as “nerfs”, cut the knife infinite move-tech and boom, didn’t nerf it to oblivion, and you may inadvertently make all those loner ditch-the-team zealots stick around some more. More to it obviously, dumbing it down for brevity.
E.g. I can take shout vet and keep the worst player or bots in a pug alive and kicking (great song) through crazy situations where they would drop like a sack of potatoes otherwise, but it also keeps them up in easy-mid situations where many pugs crumble because they’re playing at a diff they’re nowhere near ready for.
And I’m certainty no Reginald or j_sat so stuff like that should probably be looked at.
The TLDR is some things are extreme outliers to where they basically break the endgame challenge, and if there’s no meaningful endgame even some of the OPAF++ fans will get bored sooner rather than later. You can tone things down a bit without gutting them (though FS can go either way).
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You didn’t mention any talent
Most weapons You listed are those people would be extremely okay to have in a meta (at most maybe people wanting PS to work more like Relic Blade and both Relic Blade+ Greatsword being very slightly nerfed
The real loss would be Ogryn, explaining why 50% of your message was for him
So no, other than Ogryn being in the dumpster, game would still be pretty good and people wouldn’t complain not Even as much during the time knife was the meta
Actually no.
Never balance around anything that is an abhorrent mess.
Spawning 12 enemies on top of each other is not the way to make a game harder.
It’s lazy and stupid, that just leads to even more balancing issues down the line.
Havoc needs to be removed until it is reworked away from the mess it is.
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That baseline should be damanation.
The clue to how difficult it should be is in the name.
Auric should have game modifiers like grenades damage players, iron man mode, go down once and your out.
Specialist modifiers, like mark of Nurgle, that really toughen enemies, monstrosities and some specialist and elites one shotting…
Or one of any number of modifiers, the push players towards better team work, battlefield reading, tactics, and making better use of the scenery and choke points.
So balanced at damnation level, so weapons can do what they need to, and harder levels just down to player skill, rather than OP BS weapons, meta builds.
Nobody claims it is. If you read my post you would have seen I explicitly included that balancing (of player gear and talent performance) must necessarily also involve taking a look at enemy health, numbers, damage done, etc.
This.
Well said.
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And?
They both need a good nerving. The other point is, is that the FS is far more insane than the knife ever was.
So what’s your point?
I know.
And my point still stands. Havoc is a steaming pile of messy BS.
To such an extent that it needs to be removed from the game until fixed.
The other point being, is that if you balance havoc, rather damnation, then you are balancing a game based on 1% of the player base. Meaning the game will be unbalanced everywhere else for the remaining 99% of players.
Bad move.
The game needs to be balanced for damnation.
Any harder game mode designed to be should be harder, and not just by enemy spam.
Like new and different mechanics, insta death etc etc, where the balance of the weapons is not the desiding factor, but skill.
Damnation is where the balance should be at.
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Today’s average Damnation player is yesterday’s average Malice player since the power inflation pushed them up the difficulty without having to skill up to perform there. That average Damnation player has no idea how to use those tools and you could give them an infinite ammo, quick pullout Flamer and they’d still struggle with hordes since they simply don’t understand how to make use of it.
What do you mean “infinite ammo, quick pullout Flamer” already exists, are you nuts? That would be broken.
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