There have been many recent discussions on both reddit and the forums about DS4 and how it invalidates every melee weapon in the game, which is objectively true, but I find aoe to be a far more pressing balance issue than that. Flamethrowers, Rumbler, and especially Perilous Combusion post-buff all completely ignore the hitmass and cleave system to delete an entire group of enemies no matter the amount. You can not make the game difficult by spawning more enemies if they all die at the same time. This then compounds the DS4 issue by removing the only remotely tangible downside it has: average horde clear. People find that the other ranged options feel average or bad because there is zero reason to take an actual gun when you can take an aoe machine. Zealot can take knives to snipe specials and remove the flamerâs equip animation, Psyker has multiple nade options for more range, Ogryn has the rock. Maulers have basically become extinct as an enemy type.
Multiple things can be an issue at the same time, actually. You donât need to undermine your own post by starting with unnecessary commentary on other peoplesâ critique of DS4.
You can actually just make your point without trying to elevate it to the level of âmost important problemâ.
In fact you should do that. Itâs a fair issue to raise, itâs a shame you felt the need to cheapen it this way.
The average Damnation player already struggles with the game, even with infinite AoE and DS4. If those tools are removed or nerfed, casual players will feel like all the weapons are underwhelming. Meanwhile, experienced players who rely on these tools will find it harder to carry less skilled teammates or finish endgame content. In the end, the only advice experienced players will be able to give is âgit gud,â which is never healthy for the gameâs long-term community.
Just my 2 cents.
No they wonât if theyâre playing a difficulty level appropriate to their skill level. If theyâre not doing that theyâre making other peoplesâ games significantly worse. This âdonât take DS4 from meâ mentality is pure narcissism.
The real problem is that the majority of players are playing on a difficulty level far beyond their actual skill, relying heavily on the power of their weapons and builds.
This is the zone of proximal development and why it matters. Players who are not skilled and are crutching consistently see the game as insanely restrictive, with only 1 or 2 viable builds. This is because they never went through the proper growth curve and skipped to a difficulty they found challenging with broken gear. This is why its critical to nerf OP things.
The zone of Proximal development is the space where things are just too hard but not obviously unachievable and its the single most engaging and fun place to be. But all these players got robbed of that by OP gear. Refusing to remove that OP gear means new players will always believe the game is badly balanced because too many weapons are too weak to carry them and they will rarely grow. When instead they just dont realize the game is well balanced but for a few outliers.
I donât think the Flamer is too much of an issue since it has ammo limitations, but the Staff have unlimited ammo, so their DoT damage should be reduced, especially against Flak and Maniacs, where I think it could be lowered even further.
most players struggle with aiming, so if a weapon with unlimited ammo and little need for precise aim is stronger than one that requires accurate shots and has limited ammo, who would even bother using guns?
@alsozara
This âdonât take DS4 from meâ mentality is pure narcissism.
Maybe if it comes from someone who excels at eliminating specials and elites, dominating the kill feed. In that case, nerfing these overtuned options could help balance this âissueâ. I use quotes around âissueâ because, ultimately, nerf complaints often boil down to: âWhy are they killing all my mobs while I sit here with my combat shotgun and tactical axe? Fatshark, pleaseâŚâ, which can be seen as an egotistical stance.
That could be countered with, âWell, why not join them? Git gud yourself.â If the real concern is variance, then the better approach would be to ask Fatshark to buff underperforming weapons instead of over-nerfing everything, because, letâs be honest, thatâs their go-to move.
For the record, I rarely play DS4, not because I think itâs overpowered, but simply because I prefer other options. Heck, I use a shock maul in Havoc as a veteran.
@Vertraxxx The real problem is that the majority of players are playing on a difficulty level far beyond their actual skill, relying heavily on the power of their weapons and builds.
I donât see this changing, nor do I see how Fatshark can implement a solution that doesnât further restrict player agency beyond what it already does.
In a perfect world, everyone would play as a team, and the game would be balanced around four players alive and fighting. The moment one goes down, things begin to snowball. In this ideal scenario, every weapon would be more or less niche, designed for specific roles.
But we donât live in a perfect world. And balancing around Havoc proved some time ago that weâre not going back, if we ever do.
aoe weapons need to have limitations on how many enemies they can damage at once and/or have diminishing damage on the outer raidus of their aoe, whatever works best for the weapon in question on a case by case basis.
Itâs a good ancillary point to bring up, all the little broken animation bypass âtricksâ that need plugging.
My expectations for the next patch are rock bottom so I absolutely do feel the need to raise this to the level of most important problem; especially with how many people do not want DS4 to be nerfed. I will accept DS4 staying the same if aoe gets cleave.
@Reginald Refusing to remove that OP gear means new players will always believe the game is badly balanced because too many weapons are too weak to carry them and they will rarely grow.
I understand the importance of the zone of proximal development, which you mentioned as the sweet spot where challenges are tough but achievable. Overreliance on OP gear can indeed shortcut that growth, leaving players without the rewarding journey of mastering progressively harder content. This imbalance creates a situation where newer players might perceive the game as limited or poorly balanced because they never experience that tailored progression.
Although, when we talk about âcarry,â itâs worth clarifying what we really mean. Are we referring to maintaining survival in an ideal team setup, where everyone fulfills their specific role or do we mean the more frustrating scenario of having to shoulder the burden of a team where players perform below even basic expectations? In many cases, especially in solo or near-solo play, experienced players often end up compensating for teammates who underperform, and nerfing high-end gear can worsen that experience. It forces a situation where, rather than playing within that positive learning curve, youâre left grappling with an uphill battle alone.
A more balanced approach imo might be to focus on buffing underpowered options rather than just nerfing dominant gear. This way, new players can gradually climb the learning curve without feeling the need to resort to overpowered tools or, conversely, leaving solo players feeling like they must bail on encounters when their team isnât pulling its weight. The challenge lies in finding the sweet spot where the game remains engaging and accessible, yet still demands genuine skill and teamwork.
No. Infinite mobility is significantly more damaging to the gameâs health than anything else right now.
Mobility has been an issue since launch but I also find far less people abusing that compared to queuing up for a maelstrom or havoc and watching the entire screen die.
Infinite mobility which includes optional infinite effective dodges.
As egregious as AoE can be, thereâs a cost in ammo and mobility. There are multiple factors to each OFC and Iâm too lazy to type anything deeper as weâre all mostly aware of them, but I feel like the OP was maybe glossing over the other factors as people often do when discussing DS4. You can dodge-dance for days for basically free, and things like âagileâ paired with buffed DS4 werenât a thing at launch.
I really struggle to see the value (because there isnât any) in having a competition over whatâs the most overpowered among overpowered things. All of it needs addressing and letting one very clear and obvious issue remain untouched because another issue is âarguably worseâ just results in more problems than it ever solves.
Even reddit community thatâs infamous for wanting to buff everything also advocate for DS4 nerf so I think people that doesnât want it to be adjust is quite a minority tbh.
Although theyâre also repeating the âIt wasnât strong on Psykerâ thing which kinda make me facepalm a bit.
that stab is busted man, it has no business outdpsing power swords that have non existent mobility
its even more strong in a scenario where aoes flamers are the meta, since it synergize so well with them
Nerf dueling sword.
There are several very good reasons you canât just buff everything else up to DS levels that have been talked to death here, I refuse to even discuss that as an option at this point. DM me if you want me to elaborate there because Iâm not gonna fill this thread up with that discussion.
Itâs good and fine if every mode and difficulty isnât for everyone. People trying to get carried in Havoc, thinking theyâre holding their own purely due to overpowered weapons, would likely have a lot more fun playing a variety of builds in Auric Damn. As usual players unfortunately donât always tend towards what is actually most fun, so some restrictions are a necessary and good part of game design the steer players towards the optimal play experience.
Thatâs a whole other discussion mind you, but if you think restrictions arenât a necessary and good part of game design thereâs really no point in trying to have a conversation with you.