Ogryn is mid in melee unless he’s using a bullbutcher.
stagger is not a substitute for kills.
It’s hard for me to call a class great at ranged combat if the weakest shooter breaks your toughness shield in one burst.
The melee combat is slightly better. But you have a choice - you are effective against hordes and completely ineffective against elite enemies. Or vice versa.
But this is all due to weapon, not skullbreaker feats.
That’s why I suggested comparing him with another ogryn class. Any class with the skullbreaker weapons can do same with the same or better efficiency.
I had time to think a bit more about pox hound and how the mutant attack animations look like.
So when the pox hound attacks ogryn the hound can:
a) just bite the ogryn a bit and make another circle to pounce at him again
b) bite the ogryn for lower damage, keep hanging of him for 3 secs and slow him down before releasing him
c) bite the ogryn with low damange + DoT and hang on the big guy, but the ogryn can then beat the walls and floor with the hound and swing him at the enemies until the hound dies (or the ogryn is incapacitated)
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I look forward to discussions of the hound being OP meelee weapon for Ogryn (joking)
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Mutant is the weakest enemy against an Ogryn. Throw your grenade at it… one shot down.
Ogryn didn’t need shorter stun durations, he needs stun/stagger resistance. If a stun lasts 0.4 seconds or 0.2 it’s all the same, your movement, your aiming, or your heavy attack got interrupted and you have to start again.
You swing your weapon, recover 7% toughness, get shot, get stunned, your block goes down.
If they don’t want to turn ogryns into murder powerhouses they need to be made to feel special as the superheavies: they have to resist forced movement like barrel explosions and reaper pushback, and get some sort of stun immunity that doesn’t just last 4s when they charge.
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Especially annoying bombers. You may not stand in the fire, but explosion still will break toughness shield and stun you.
And while you’re stunned, a couple of more dangerous enemies will hit you.
Thats a very good Power Maul, i wish i could get one like this, tell to your friend to put +25% to unyelding instead of mainacs, upgrade the skulcrusher and you will be ble to 3 shot bulwarks and 4 shot crushers with Heavyweight feat and olso 3 shot or 2 shot all the other elites with powered L1
Power Maul purpose is to kill elites and create space, and makes an excellent job at that.
Giving to it the possibility to even be a good horde clear weapon would be too much, you can cover that weakness easly with his ranged options.
On topic:
(this is not specifically directed to you that Deisu but just my reply to OP in general)
Even if he doesn’t have complite buid in stun and supression immunity Ogryn does have very notichable resistance to those things.
Some of his feats are questionable, i would like the bleed staks to be buffed and smash 'em good to be reworked in +50% more thoughnes for kill because as it stands now it’s quite useless, it’s true that a lot of his kit is very situational but Ogryn works perfectly well without much extra improvement.
You need to consider the class as a whole in combination with his class weapons and blessings.
His blunt weapon don’t do much horde clear? Try using a stubby, or a kickback to take care of hordes instead. You want to mow down hordes? Knives and especially BB deal massive damage to them and you can cover your weakness to armor with GG or Rippergun with can opener blessing.
Overall Ogryn skullbreaker is the best designed class this game has to offer probably mostly because all his kit is class exclusive and much easier to balance.
It probably feals weak to play to whom is not used to play him compared to others because it doesn’t have crutch weapons like PS and Flamer bit is those weapons that overperform.
How about you use your melee weapon to smash everything to bits?
You can use your ult to rush into melee combat with ranged units before they can even scatter and start shooting.
Yes he is. Take a strong knife with good blessings and you shred a crowd faster than anyone else in melee.
Yes he is. You have a feat that applies bleed on heavy and you have a feat that gives you damage reduction for nearby bleeding enemies.
Your attacks have massive stagger and your regular push can stop and knock over elites.
Yes you do. And if they are too tough to stagger with your regular push (pretty much only enemy ogryns) you have your ult (or ranged weapon) to stagger them too.
But a massive stamina pool, and massive toughness regen in fight. You can just tank a hit every 3 sec or so, and your hp will not get scratched.
Yes it is, if you use it properly.
Also:
You can literally stand in the middle of a crowd and be completely fine by spamming light attacks and maybe pushing once in a while. You can use explosive ranged weapons to create space and knock down tougher elites.
Even if you are surrounded by enemies that you can not stagger easily, and when your ranged weapon needs to reload, yes you can save yourself from a situaton where you are completely surrounded, with your ult.
Ogryn is the only class that can do something like this.
When ever you are in melee range of anything, you can have a pretty good damage resistance and toughness regen.
Yes. Ranged enemies take down your toughness quickly (as they do for almost every class), but that does not stop you from blocking and pushing melee enemies.
This is complete bogus.
For example, you seem to complain about toughness quite a bit. Just use the lvl 30 feat that restores your toughness for hitting enemies with your ult.
Summary:
Almost every single thing you said about the ogryn is wrong.
And somehow, 3 people liked it so much that they gave you a like.
Not denying that some of the ogryn feats are pretty useless, but damn… you missed the mark.
No thanks.
Judging by how “well” most ogryn enjoyers seem to play, this would make the ogryn more deadly to other players, than any actual enemy on the field.
You only have two grenades and i killed like 17 by myself in my last hi int game.
I’m not arguing, in this case, for good horde clear. I’m arguing for parity on heavy swings, at least, with the the Thunder Hammer. Which is already a better single target weapon and does just as much stagger while swinging faster AND 1HKO’s most small targerts on first hit. The power maul killing something every heavy swing would demonstrably not make it good at horde clear. But it should make ogryn feel better.
The thing is that there should always be a reliable tactic. E.g. in VT2 you can use a lot of ults to stop one pack master or one assassin, but that should always be the last resort. Dodging the grab or pushing the assassin is what is needed there, something that does not depend on the career or gear, just like the reliable tactics are needed here. OFC, there will often be something more efficient and not nearly skill based, like the grenade, but the skill option should always be there for everyone.
On this i kinda agree, if his first attak would be able to oneshot 1 poxwalker it wouldn’t make it OP and feel a little better.
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I already wrote all this above.
I mean, this class does not have its own niche, where he would be better than other classes. He’s just fun. However, he is still able to pass any existing difficulty.
The knife is the only way he can effectively kill a crowds. But my claims are primarily to his feats, and not about weapons. Give this knife to any other class and he will cut enemies not worse.
We have different perceptions about tank role. Being the most survivable in the team does not mean being useful.
The massive stagger for whom? Simple zombies aren’t big threat. The maximum that you can do without class ability or power maul is to push berserker or mauler.
It does not affect allies. Works only with you toughness.
Still too rare. A charged power maul attack can be called control. But anyone who has it and who will get it in future can do the same.
About Bullfighter. When does your team start losing? When the number of enemies is increasing, and the team is not able to cope with threats in time. And that’s when this feat will not work.
I wrote above an example with a bomber in reply to comment.
You give an example of a bit weak feat. Are you play on damnation difficulty? You won’t recover much with this feat. The threat comes from waves with elite enemies, including a lot of ogryns who goes ahead. “Bull Gore” is better to not remember.
So you have one noticeably more effective feat on this row - “Unstoppable”.
I would like to have choice.
Summary:
Check out Foot Knight from Vermintide 2 for an example of a good tank talent tree.
Bull rush with Unstoppable feat give the ogryn amazing riposition ability
Indeed it’s not a tank, tanks in tide games are bad, it has a supportive role but he needs to do his part in killing things if not is just a weight.
His healtpool is not there for him to absorb damage, his toughness DMR is very noticable even compared to the zealot just get to cover before it braks to not get stunned, even if he does he recovers super fast.
They are not and Smash 'Em Good! is just useless
There is plenty of damage resources, heavyweight is designed to build Ogryn as an elite killer and is the best talent in the raw.
I agree it’s a dead talent, i saw people using it sometimes but can’t compare to the usefulness of Heavyweight
I haven’t tested this but if it was really like this feels quite stupid.
Bull fighter helps you win, you use at the start when a bunch of elites are approching, while they are dow you an your teamates kill them and in you have back almost all your ult to do it again, anyway this talent feels less useful because i never find myself the need to bullrush so often.
All that row is kinda bad i agree hard as nails is the best option there and helps a bit when you pick up the little ones that fall down.
Yes another less than optimal talent but the other two in the row are very competitive.
Ragin bull gives a lot, stuns basically evrything if you use unstoppable you can move quite the long distance in a short while and you get nice buff, 5 seconds are a lot in a game like this, it’s enough for me to clean one wave of horde all by myself on damnation with BB.
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You can just bullrush through the horde.
You say that the ogryn are at the front. Great. You knock them over and your teammates can start slapping them safely, without being inconvenienced by other enemies.
Meanwhile you take care of the other elites (behind the ogryn), which are easy to kill since you can push them around after they get up. Since they are relatively easy to kill, you get your ult back quickly (if you use the Bullfighter feat) and can then turn around and rush through the remaining enemy ogryn again, within 15 sec or so.
In the meantime, psykers BB the ogryn, veterans and Zealots can drop grenades on them, all of which also stuns them.
The more enemies there are, the better the feat works, and the more useful it becomes.
Regular elites are very easy to focus down, when everything is lying on the ground and doesn’t pose an immediate threat.
I think the melee enemies need to be more interesting, and the game needs to rely on damnation being less reliant on ranged for its difficulty. More interesting melee could require more melee players shifting the meta away from the vet. Ogryn feels bad because it’s vulnerable to ranged.
I don’t think the Ogryn meta is in a good place because the power maul excels so much over the others for CC, and the Mk3 is so powerful for horde clears that anything else is sub-optimal and forced looking for variety.
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