State of balance!

[AnFbiVan]

TL;DR I don’t think nerfs are in order, I think everyone should be brought up to ogryn and Arbites. The average player even in Havoc 20, is worse than you think. I think either modded realm needs to be added for modded difficulty, or there needs to be a separate balancing to Havoc. Or both!

Now for a longer thought:

Since the release of the Arbites, there’s been a lot of concern coming from the elite players of Darktide about the way difficulty is handled. Between the three weapon outliers (dueling sword, plasma gun, rumbler) and the arbites rolling through things seemingly unharmed, the game’s difficulty has come into question.

As someone with an embarrassing amount of time in both Vermintide 2 and Darktide, done high difficulty true solos in both games, and has cleared Cata 3 DWONS with friends, I would not call myself a slouch in these games. Not that my opinion is more valuable, but all that to say that I understand both sides of the argument when it comes to difficulty in Darktide.

My short answer here is: I don’t think there should be any sort of nerfing going on in base gamemodes. The point of the game is to have fun, people have fun winning, both elite and casual players. Casual players need more tools to win and that’s okay, do not take their tools away.

Long answer is: there are a lot of things that need to be reworked and/or buffed in the games current state. Veteran and Zealot are popular examples at the moment. The game is unhealthy balancing wise BECAUSE of how bad half of the talents are in the human characters skill trees. Not because things are OP. Sure there are outliers that could be reigned in, but both Tide games have suffered from bad balance passes before and I don’t have faith that any nerfs or reworks would be done in an interesting or fair way. Sorry Fatshark, but its true, you guys have screwed the pooch before, and talks of nerfs are not well received considering the balance of everything else in the game currently.

My proposed solution to all the arguments shared: add modded realm to this game and get Cata DWONS up and running for the elite players, and get Chaos Wastes in here already, and rework the skill trees so they’re as useful as Arbites’ tree. IMO Arbites is fun because all possible builds on them are strong, that’s how it SHOULD be. We do not need another Vermintide 2 situation where there are definite BIS talents to pick. The elite crowd of Darktide have nothing to bang their head against, so give them something as hard as Cata DWONS. Give us modded realm, and let us do our own thing. Stop focusing on Weaves 2.0 as a solution to the elite player issue, and just let them “create” their own difficulty. Elite players will ALWAYS surpass what YOU create for them. And sure there is some fun in that, but if you shift your whole attention to satisfying them the rest of the players get shafted. Leave the stagger cheese to the casuals, they love it. Don’t ruin the fun for everyone.

A much simpler solution to this would also be to have a different game balance for Havoc. Just nerf dueling sword and plasma there. Remove stagger effects as a modifier. Remove yellow toughness as a modifier. Seriously, leave it to that crowd to have those balancing changes. It alienates people if you make sweeping changes that satisfy a single party. This is a video-game, everyone can have their cake and eat it too.

Most of my friends that dont do Cata DWONS runs, or play high Havoc can’t even clear a regular Auric mission. Damnation too. Heresy even. Your average videogame enjoyer plays Mobas, Fifa, Call of Duty, and Fortnite. Seriously go check their average player counts. We have like a 5,000 player avg on steam worldwide. Not everyone is a “real” gamer.

[alsozara]

Look man, we’d all love a modded realm, but at some point you’re gonna have to face the fact that’s very unlikely to happen, then where does that really leave the balance discussion? If a modded realm isn’t on the table (it’s very unlikely it is), what is the backup solution to difficulty chasers, the most hour intensive and loyal players, feeling like the game is less and less for them every update?

One would think the 5 base game difficulties and Havocs 1-30 would be enough to satisfy more casual players. Isn’t it reasonable that the top Havoc levels at least are left for people who have the most fun when the game is kicking their ass?

[dannylew8299]

Le evil elites just want the game to be good, man.

Mod realm would be cool, but current servers are already unstable as hell, I think it’s time to admit that the mod realm boat has sailed and is not coming back.

[Frish]

The alternative to a modded realm is custom matchmaking and lobby browsing. Pick & choose modifiers to your heart’s content!

[Vror]

@AnFbiVan

The game is unhealthy balancing wise BECAUSE of how bad half of the talents are in the human characters skill trees. Not because things are OP. Sure there are outliers that could be reigned in, but both Tide games have suffered from bad balance passes before and I don’t have faith that any nerfs or reworks would be done in an interesting or fair way.

With this in mind, wouldn’t you agree the best way to balance the game is relocating the power from these OP weapons to buff the trees just a smitch?

[simpliv]

The best approach now is to rework Vet/Psyker/Zealot to be on par with Ogryn, probably not Arbites. Ogryn is very close to Arbites in terms of rework power, however.

I don’t think a lot of things actually need to be nerfed on Arbitrator. Castigator Stance is one, Nuncio is pretty strong with the sheer amount of buffs/debuffs it gives, and the frequency at which the dog can participate, kill, and lock down enemies, to the point that you no longer need to watch your own back.

Dogless is currently unattractive because the dog is so unbelievably strong. There is no equivalent exchange with those keystones. We will see how much that changes if any nerfs come out in the next 6 months.

Most importantly, Auric needs to be balanced upward. It will take a long time to reach the level VT2 Cataclysm did where breakpoints on every weapon were important. It’s also a matter of if it will invalidate 90% of Blessings again (even if a lot of them are currently invalid already).

Looking at Havoc for top-end difficulty is a mistake. Very few players participate in that system to begin with. There should be difficult content for a large audience of players, with Havoc being its own side thing. Again, like how VT2 has Cataclysm and Weaves separately.

I’m honestly not even mad Arbites are as strong as they are. If they were mediocre or worse than base operatives, the fallout from charging $12 for a undertuned, weak operative would be astronomical.

[Vertraxxx]

I believe the game needs a large-scale rebalance of weapons and classes to bring the clear rates for Auric and Maelstrom back to what they were at launch. Personally, I want Auric to be set as the baseline for overall balance.

Before the class overhauls, clear rates for Damnation and Auric were clearly lower than they are now. At that time, there were some slightly meta weapons like the revolver or knife, but there were almost no things that completely broke the game’s difficulty such as the DS or Gold Toughness.

Because of this, players naturally felt a kind of pressure or restriction in relation to the difficulty. There were not many players who played at difficulties far beyond their skill level. Instead, players with skills roughly matching the difficulty naturally gathered. Even in that environment, the clear rates were lower than they are now. That alone shows how easy and boring Auric has become today.

[Index]

@AnFbiVan

can’t even clear a regular Auric mission. Damnation too. Heresy even.

well they are in luck, there’s malice just exactly for that purpose

you see when i read of your “friends” you describe them struggling, unable yet unsatisfied of the whole game until they reach higher difficulties even if the “content” is the same.

the way i read your solution: make it easier…
my opinion? NO!

counter argument:
when i was scrawny and struggling in the gym, you think i was “unhappy” cause there were weights around that would have crushed me?

best buddy pushed, spotted, motivated and helped me get that last 2 reps out even if i puked or dropped on my ass.

guess what approach helped “improve” and would help in my former example?

if i learn a game for the first time its hundreds of hours of fundamentals and getting the details right, cause well… i love the game.

@AnFbiVan

Not everyone is a “real” gamer.

then “those” should accept reality that not everyone is mr olympia or heavy weight boxing champ either unless he moves his lazy lard-ass and gives his all in the pursuit of his goal.
no one is coming with a handout or participation trophy.

@AnFbiVan

done high difficulty true solos in both games

aint you the best source for your mates then to teach em the prerequisites of their wishfull fantasy?
maybe that really “shows” them the gap in physical skill and lack of understanding and motivates them to improve ?

i mean our gym had arnold in his prime posing across the main wall, if that aint a blueprint than what is?

ps:

@AnFbiVan

enjoyer plays Mobas, Fifa, Call of Duty, and Fortnite

and is likely on par with those drinking cheap booze from a bucket at the beach, hardly something i take into account when it comes to measuring … anything

[Fragtal]

Several unstructured points:

• you could have nerfed dueling sword and it still would have been the best melee weapon in the game and you wouldn’t have noticed it in Aurics. Yet, the discussion is superfluous because arbites came out to power creep.
• AOE weapons are hard to balance because they scale with numbers of enemies
• darktide is like fine wine. The game and you get better the more you play and learn. You have to learn and master weapon mechanics, dodging, blocking, dodge sliding, sound cues and attack patterns of enemies, enemy weaknesses, map layout, spawn points. That’s what several difficulties are for.
• yet, players watch their streamer of choice with thousands of hours mastering those mechanics and think weapons should be buffed so that they too can clear H40 with their 100 hours played.
• right now the state seems to be:
  → buff to make money
  → spawn more enemies to increase difficulty
  → fix server issues due to many enemies
  → repeat
• what’s the point of a maulers if you buff everything so much that you can kill it as easily as an unarmored enemy? At this point it’s just a fancy looking pox Walker.

[DornIvanotic]

c3dwons would just replace auric. you’d need dutch with the level of power creep you are suggesting.

[harlekein]

@AnFbiVan

The point of the game is to have fun, people have fun winning, both elite and casual players. Casual players need more tools to win and that’s okay, do not take their tools away.

Casual players can stick to Malice.

Fun is being challenged at the appropriate level.

[Downer]

I think everyone should be brought to ogryn/arbites lvl and then game rebalanced in general and not with crap like making more health or defence to enemies or spreading pox gas everywhere.

1. There should be more enemies, dregs have no analogue of scab ogryns and maulers, there was already suggestions of adding them plaguebearer and i think nurglings too are in order.
2. Balacing should be around mechanics of enemies, like recent buff to heavy gunners, when they all started walking while firing. I think adding such elements would make game better.
3. Poxgryn should be buffed, i have no idea how, maybe give it passive health regen.

[Index]

@Downer

brought to ogryn/arbites lvl and then game rebalanced in general

ok, but why do all the work of changing

instead of correcting the few outliers?

what main culprits do we have?
dueling sword
confident strike
plasma
arbites
parts of oggy revamp.

in the other “corner” we have vet/zealot/psyker (incl. their weaponry)
plus the nurgle shooting gallery.

i’m not betting on fatshark scrapping their vacation and rebuilding the balance from the ground up any time soon.

so in the meantime i’d settle for…

[Kitten]

I’m just on Aurics rn, but Arbites TTK vs Elites seems broken af. It’s another pressure on other Classes to limit build variability, or just become arbiteskillfeedwatcher24.

I went from learning the game before Arbites came out, to steamrolling every Auric Maelstrom with 3 Arbites, and now when I go to hit an enemy a dog jumps on it.

Why have a Class designed to Stagger, when they can just kill everything themself in 5 seconds anyway?

Also I’m looking at Zealot Talents and wondering what they’re supposed to do that Arbites doesn’t do better and safer?

(Dafuq doesn’t Zealot get any Cleave Talents btw and no Brittle/Rending either? Probs balanced around less enemies)

[Index]

not gonna lie, switching back and forth ogryn to arbites, while i’m trying to outdamage/kill any arbi i encounter their “ability” to just mosh forward whacking is sometimes not doable with my oggy.

sure, talents loadout etc come into play, if i’d BLO my rumbler into every group etc or go the cheap bully3 light spam…

BUT the loadout i was dominating every board with the last 6 months gets topped by some scrawny officer friendly with far less effort.

i dont play slower, i dont miss more shots, arbi just ploughs through in a bee line.

now the fun part, as soon as i switch over myself to play arbi its like obelix humping the roman army

never was i that fast that “forward” and not in a stealth zealot skipping but room clearing way.

its like you begin to “hate” those behind you for not keeping up…

[Kitten]

Oh, but to address buffing up at this point:

What game would there be left to play? And if they add more Elites, what are the non-Elite killing Weapons for?

[MarkusKruber]

Dogless is not unattractive. 3 shock mines or 5 grenades that regenerate AND still allow you to get from grenade pick-ups is extremely attractive, along with all the other buffs, it’s very strong and viable for high-end Havoc. I’d say it’s very similar in power to dog, about as good as it can get.
Castigator’s definitely doesn’t need a nerf. Honestly, I can’t see much of the appeal of it myself. For me Break the Line offers so much more room and with its ability to stagger everything below a monstrosity offers you a lot of safety, much more often, compared to Castigator’s. But if anything that just says something to me about playstyles and that’s a good thing.
Nuncio is not nerf-worthy strong, I don’t know what to tell you. 1 Bomber entirely nullifies Nuncio, a horde and a Monstrosity will entirely push you away from Nuncio because it does very little to help holding ground, unless you run Lone Wolf and spam your blitzes.

[MarkusKruber]

I think the idea is that the “outliers” are more fun than the comparatively outdated “everyone else”. And I’ll have to agree on that. I don’t think everyone else needs to be buffed up to Ogryn and Arbites strength though. I believe the problem is merely that they lack the polished new talent tree design philosophy that Fatshark has finally nailed down. People overrate “power levels”. Every class is already strong enough to compete on the highest difficulty, not everyone need to stand next to each other – yes, ESPECIALLY in a PvE shooter – and I believe that just like Fatshark said, achieving a ‘true balance’ is impossible. It’s best to settle for “more than” than to risk getting a “not enough”.

[simpliv]

@MarkusKruber

Dogless is not unattractive. 3 shock mines or 5 grenades that regenerate AND still allow you to get from grenade pick-ups is extremely attractive, along with all the other buffs, it’s very strong and viable for high-end Havoc. I’d say it’s very similar in power to dog, about as good as it can get.

Dogless has some good perks, most notably Veteran’s iconic grenade regeneration. I just don’t think it compares to the insane utility the dog currently provides. Again, this is something I think can only really change depending on what, if any, balance tuning the devs approach Arbitrator and the dog with. Everything about it is currently good, it’s just not attractive. I think I was too much on it needing a buff and more that I want to see what they do with tuning the dog.

I don’t really value losing the companion over an additional shock mine, which I personally think is an overrated Blitz. The Arbites grenades also really aren’t that good at all. They’re probably the only thing where I can say, “Wow, these are just worse than OG operative gear (frags)”

But like you said, that speaks to playstyle diversity and that’s a good thing.

Castigator’s Stance is amazing. It’s a literal “I win” button on the same level as golden toughness, except the sheer amount of DR lets you ignore almost everything during its active duration. There’s no physical downside to it because it’s just a raw buff to your survivability.

I agree it doesn’t have as much utility but it exists to make you RoboCop in a room full of enemies (much like how Veteran used to play, alas…). Does it need a nerf? I think its TDR could be brought down slightly. I think some of that power could be moved to add some recoil reduction and additional cleave as well.

@MarkusKruber

Nuncio is not nerf-worthy strong, I don’t know what to tell you. 1 Bomber entirely nullifies Nuncio, a horde and a Monstrosity will entirely push you away from Nuncio because it does very little to help holding ground, unless you run Lone Wolf and spam your blitzes.

I disagree here in that it just sounds like misuse. I’ve wasted plenty of Nuncios to bad placement or too early or too late and gotten pushed out of it as a result, because it’s not in a good position where I’ve been able to take advantage of it. That’s perhaps part of the drawback of something that’s a static location only. It still turns everyone into supersoldiers on top of debuffing enemies.

I don’t know that balancing it matters currently. My gut feeling is that it needs a nerf, but until we see a comprehensive balancing approach to Arbitrator and other operatives, and more indirectly what they’ll do with Auric long-term as its own difficulty.

@MarkusKruber

don’t think everyone else needs to be buffed up to Ogryn and Arbites strength though. I believe the problem is merely that they lack the polished new talent tree design philosophy that Fatshark has finally nailed down. People overrate “power levels”. Every class is already strong enough to compete on the highest difficulty, not everyone need to stand next to each other – yes, ESPECIALLY in a PvE shooter – and I believe that just like Fatshark said, achieving a ‘true balance’ is impossible.

I think this is just kind of superfluous but conceptually I agree. Vet/Psyker/Zealot all feel outdated and ‘difficult’ because their tools are limited—and especially in Zealot’s case—it’s because of their talent tree designs. It’s very easy to get a lot of strong modifiers to your playstyle as Arbites. Truthfully none of the older operatives will ever reach the sorts of breakpoints Arbites can with the same weapons unless major talent reworks happen.

Most core/iconic picks for each operative are badly placed and a lot of interesting choices get buried behind connector node bloat and restrictive pathways. Arbites doesn’t have to deal with this. Ogryn no longer has to deal with this, for the most part.

Every time they rework talent trees, everyone gets stronger. It has happened to Ogryn, and while Ogryn was already really strong, they got even stronger, but more importantly they got a lot more fun to play.

Psyker didn’t get the same sort of rework, but they got more talents that ended up being too difficult to get over things that already made them strong or stronger.

[Dadadudu]

Bit of a lengthy tl;dr ?
TL;DR:
‘‘Don’t nerf anything—buff everything else to match Ogryn and Arbites. Most players are worse than elite players think, and they need powerful tools to succeed. Instead of making the game harder for everyone, add a modded realm or separate Havoc balancing for elite players. Let casuals keep their fun tools. Improve skill trees (especially for Veteran and Zealot), add Chaos Wastes, and give elite players high-difficulty options like Cata DWONS. Don’t focus balance around the top 1%. Everyone can have their fun.’’

I agree aside from the split of an ‘modded Realm’ and official Realm..