Stab attack discussion

Hi there. I’m starting this thread to discuss stabbing attacks in general and how I feel that they are generally overshadowed by overheads due to overheads requiring much less skill to headshot with consistently as well as generally having shield breaking properties. The vibe I get from stabbing attacks is that they are supposed to be high damage but heavily headshot dependent. In some cases this is very true (whc deathknell rapier) but generally I find that overheads do more damage overall (when accounting for bodyshots and in many cases their headshot damage is not very far behind) and are much more consistent to hit. I’m gonna take a look at every weapon that has a stab and give my opinion on it. Since this is a discussion, I hope y’all will jump in as well. I play only on cata btw. It’s a long one so strap in.

KRUBER

-Tuskgor Spear

I find the light stabs really hard to hit headshots with consistently. They just don’t feel right. On top of that the damage isn’t the best when compared with overheads. Comparing these to the overhead light on the 1h sword, they somehow do less damage on both headshot and bodyshot. 3/10

heavy 1 is much more consistent to hit headshots with (though it’s not really very easy), but also deals only marginally more damage when compared to overhead heavies from bret longsword which is MUCH easier to hit headshots with under pressure. Overall it’s only passable. 5/10

Ultimately though, tuskgor spear’s ridiculous cleave would need to be toned down for it to get more stab damage. That however is a change I am in full support of as tuskgor spear currently doesn’t really feel like a spear due to how strong the push stab and heavy 2 are.

-Halberd

Since Halberd has overheads, I find the stabs being weak (except for heavy 1) justifiable. I’ll still analyze each attacks regardless.

Light 2 is honestly kind of pathetic. It has mediocre headshot damage on infantry somewhat justified by its speed, but it’s very inconsistent to hit headshots with. It’s armor damage is also terrible without hitting a headshot in which case it is barely passable. The fact the sweep does more on bodyshot is bad. Overall this attack is pretty bad and is only used because it chains from the heavy stab and leads to an overhead which is the same speed and far far superior. 2/10

Heavy 1 is actually pretty decent. I’m pretty sure it has the same damage profile as tuskgor spear heavy 1 though it is much faster. It is also pretty consistent to hit headshots with as long as you aim high. I still feel like it wouldn’t hurt to up its headshot damage. 7/10

Overall I find Halberd to be a pretty decent weapon (though some of the people I pub with seem to hate it). Light 2 is a trash attack in general that could use a buff, and heavy 1 is decent but is not as good as the overhead light the Halberd has.

-sword and shield

the pushstab does low damage and is consistent to headshot with. When compared to the overhead light of 1h sword it’s bad. 4/10

Heavy 2 is kinda hard to headshot with consistently and does pretty decent damage (better than tuskgor, worse than spear and shield). If this weren’t a shield weapon it’s say buff it but it’s fine on sword and shield. 6/10

Overall I think sword and shield is a decent answer to the mace and shield when it comes to push stab combos. Mace and shield is kinda brain dead and not very headshot dependent and has decent dps,where as sword and shield can do potentially better(idk might not be the case) dos if you can hit headshots. Mace and shield certainly has far superior elite lockdown potential though.

-spear and shield

Light 3/pushstab has low damage for what it is. When compared to the 1h sword overhead it does a decent bit less damage on headshot where as I think it should do more. 4/10

Heavy three has good damage. I think this is the best stab kruber has in terms of damage. No real need to buff this attack at all(maybe make the pushstab chain into it? As heavy 2 of the spear and shield has unnaturally high cleave and low armor damage). I think tuskgor spear heavy should be at this level or higher in terms of damage on headshot. 8-9/10

Overall spear and shield is fine in terms of stabs aside from the light stab being weak. It also is pretty consistent to headshot with in general which is nice.

-Bret sword and shield

This weapon is the definition of jack of all trades with a strong overhead light and heavy on top of the stabs and stupid amounts of control. No buffs are needed here imho. Pluse grail knight heavily buffs everything he touches.

Pushtab is exactly the same as sword and shield. 4/10

Heavy 3 is exactly the same as 1h sword. 6/10

BARDIN

No stabbing weapons unless you count pick axe

ELF

-Dual swords/sword and dagger/dual daggers/1h sword

Push stab is shared between some of these weapons with minor differences for dual daggers(lower damage and a bleed). Overall though, This attack is kinda weak. We all know that sword and dagger and dual daggers dont need much help, but I think a pushstab damage buff could help the dual swords alot. Currently the pushstab on these weapons is just flat out worse than every stab kruber has, and elf is supposed to be the finesse headshot machine character (second only to whc). The best aspect of the attack is its speed. Other than that it’s pretty darn lame especially considering that you have to use stamina to use these attacks. 4/10

Light 4 on sword and dagger has the same damage profile as the push stab but is even faster. At this level of speed with no push dependency, no buffs are needed. 7/10

Light 3 on the 1h sword also has the same damage profile. This attacks main use is for the spicy movement speed boost it gives. It’s damage is pretty low as said before and spamming out heavies is just more effective than weaving this in after heavy 1. When compared to the 1h sword kruber and sienna have, it’s damage is worse even on headshot. I think in the context of the 1h sword this attack needs a buff. 5/10

Dual daggers heavy doesn’t count as its an overhead(even if you are technically stabbing the enemy with the daggers)

On the bright side, all these attacks are consistent to headshot with.

-spear

This weapon is the reason I am making this post. while this is one of my favorite weapons to use due to how the moveset flows, I think the stab damage isn’t high enough, and some of the hitboxes are terrible.

lights 1 2 and 4 are overall just ok. The hitboxes on these attacks are just plain bad. Light 1 is probably the worst contender as it is just so hard to tell where it’s actually hitting. The other two are not as bad but still not great. Even with more that 200 hours of only using the spear I still can’t headshot consistently with Light 1. It’s horrible. The damage on the other hand is quite good. I wouldn’t mind a small buff to damage in order to reach a nice breakpoint that only I care about, but it’s really not necessary. If the other Light stabs I’ve mentioned were buffed to this level in terms of damage, that’s about where I think they should be. 5/10

Heavy 2 is such a satisfying attack to use and land, has awesome range, and is really really consistent to headshot with but ultimately really isn’t rewarding enough. It’s damage is only what I would say is ok for what it is. The 1h sword heavies are faster, have a very small amount less damage and require much much less skill to headshot with. When comparing to dual daggers and sword and dagger the comparison is even less favorable. This attack needs a buff. 5/10

-two handed sword

Heavy 1 is the only stab this weapon has and is in a similar boat to the spear. It has pretty ok damage, but it’s still not high enough for a stab in my opinion. It’s pretty ok when it comes to headshot consistency even if it’s significantly harder to hit headshots with than the spear heavy 2. It just takes alot of practice to hit headshots with this thing and I think the reward is just not high enough. (This weapon is a beast on legend though). 5/10

-spear and shield

Lights 1 and 2 and the pushstab are fine I guess but their damage is pretty low. I don’t really see a reason for the damage to be worse than the 1h spear honsetly. The hitbox is substantially better though. 6/10

Heavy 3 is the same as with spear but since the spear and shield has a meaty overhead to help out, I think it’s fine as is. 7/10

Spear and shield is good already, but I don’t think changing the damage profile on lights to match 1h spear is going too far.

SALTZPYRE

-rapier

The poster boy for good stabs. Goes into the stratosphere when used with whc.

Uncharged lights are just fantastic. Really solid speed and damage combined with extreme headshot dependency. Perfect as is. 10/10

Charged heavies are good. Very ok for what they are(about on par with other heavy stabs listed here) but when combined with uncharged heavies enable you to really optimize your dps. If this was the rapier’s only heavy attack I would say buff it, but the versatility that charging provides is really helping it out. 8/10

-bilhook

Lights 1 and 3 are pretty decent even though they are still worse than the overhead light from the faction in every way. They could use a buff but that is ultimately unnecessary since Bill hook is trong already. Not to mention the movement speed boost light 3 gives. 6/10

Heavy 1 is the same story as most of the other stabs. It’s pretty good when it comes to headshot consistency but it’s damage is so so. Since the billhook also has an overhead to help out, it’s fine.
7/10

SIENNA

-dagger

Heavy 2 just feels weak. I get that sienna is generally supposed to be weak in melee but this attack is just dissapointing. This thing looks so powerful but it’s damage ends up being just ok. It’s also pretty slow which doesn’t help. On top of all that it’s kinda awkward to hit headshots with but at least it’s consistent. At least it has a dot which helps a little I guess. This attack really needs a buff imo. 4/10

Pushstab is the same as dual daggers push stab(I think) On elf. It’s weak but has good mobility 4/10.

Light 3 is technically a stab but doesn’t really behave like one. I think it has the exact same damage profile as the sweeping lights so it does no armor damage and is low damage in general. This attack needs a damage profile change or something. It’s just weird that it has the same damage profile as the light sweep.

To conclude, the trend I’m seeing is that the weapons that rely heavily on stab damage and have fewer redeeming qualities tend to be perceived as lower tier by the community. I think this demonstrates that stabs just generally don’t have enough reward for the skill they require with a few exceptions. If you agree or disagree please discuss.

Bardin/Saltz have a jab-like single attack with the dual hammers/splitters, and it is similarly bad and generally never used except accidentally after pushing. Even this features a follow up light you never see elsewhere in the combo that is another overhead and is around 50% more damage vs unarmored and almost identical armor damage.

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