Specials are terribly designed

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
21

The big issues for me with the specials are “Good god the knockback on ranged weapons is silly” and “Man, remember collision detection?”. Getting punted by a sniper like a hollywood action film shotgun pulls me out of the game and makes them very unfun to fight with everything else they do.

Most of the melee special stuff would be better if they just had collision: I have been downed often enough by my rev’d chainaxe going into a poxwalker that walked through the rager instead, blasted by a sniper through a (seemingly unharmed) crowd, and who can forget the crusher-bulwark four armed chimera?

…dammit I think I’ll make a topic about that.

I have a dislike for the flame based specials however, because not only does the fire eat your toughness, because of the system that makes you stop moving you eat a lot of health damage trying to get out of a grenadier’s aoe. If it bypassed toughness entirely instead I think it would still hold your feet to the fire (dohohoh) but not be so frustrating.

2 Likes
22

On Malice, specials are annoying but OK.

On Heresy, specials become bullet-sponges the likes of which would make any VT2 player want to hurl. Their TTK, if the 4 players aren’t concentrating fire, is too high. Some of them remind me of Back4Blood :face_vomiting:

2 Likes
23

My general points on specialists:

Remove their aimbot !

  1. Bomber runs faster than players and their run speed is not restricted to stamina. Also their bombs flames have too much radius. Can literally wipe a team in elevator. Way too tanky for such behaviour

  2. gunner - stunlocks you on low diffs, tears your toughness and ho on higher. Can take a bolter and live on malice.

  3. shotgunners - their shorgun have no spread

  4. ragers - seen ok exept the ghost range, which is too long on all enemies

  5. mauler and crusher seems fine for me.

  6. bulwark - we could get nire tools to go around his shield. In hordes this guy will stop any cleaving melee. But generally okeyish

  7. reaper, on malice and lower not really a threat, but if he gets a horde or more specials it can get ugly.

  8. pox hound - getting HP to resist a brain burst is dumb. We should get a mechanic to allow us getting freed from his lunge, like using class ability to get it off.

  9. trappers - VERY bugged. Sometimes they feint net shot or simply the animation enters a restart and you are on your dodge cooldown. They way he pulls you up is surreal. How can someone pull a ties Ogryn faster than a fit Zealot can charge ?

  10. pox bursters - way too much HP for something loke this. Not mention it can wipe a team just by its spawning pattern.

  11. Sniper, way too powerful and way too health damage based on how high rate of fire and accurqcy he has. Also he loves aiming at trapped and downed too much.

4 Likes
24

the only special that really needs tuning is the poxburster. it just needs a little less stagger resistance OR a slightly smaller explosion radius and its fine. im not sure how many people know this about a poxburster but you dont have to kill it if it appears next to you. you can block push it as its suicide diving you and it will fall backwards on the floor and blow up after a few seconds. the only problem with this is it has very tight timing meaning if you push it too late its impossible to get away even if you instantly dodge backwards (this is why a very slightly smaller radius would balance this guy perfectly)

as for the other specials imo very well done. they all have good counterplay and solid audio queues on the disablers.

1 Like
25

Even that is clunky… The amount of times I’ve punshed the pox when in reality he was already mid air and he just went boom in my face…

26

For the suicide poxbuster, I believe a hitpoint or CC nerf (Stagger when get shot at) should be enough to put him into a healthy spot. He already has a very lousy warning sound cue. The trapper’s biggest problem is that this mtfker can shoot through obstacle and some time can instant trap you when it walk pass a door and immediately fire upon you without any delay. The dog is just broken, particularly its pathfinding program that is completely random, and also it can ghost through horde as well. Combined with the ridiculous tankiness that can even tank pin point buckshot make it extremely lethal in critical horde invasion. The sniper need more visibility on its lazer sight, such as making their lazer colour into green as Nurgle blessing. Flamer should get exploded when firing into their tank, and this should be a QoL, not a ““Nerf””.

27

I do not think design is terrible. I think specials are mostly fine but people need to learn how to deal with them. Some of the enemies have too much HP or buggy AI, sometimes they spawn too close. This is a co-op game and it is not as easy to carry as V1&2 but I never felt that it is unfair like sometimes V2 is.

I think the design is fine, specials are distinct (no copy/paste B4B) and you can hear them before (or see sniper laser).
Implementation needs some work and tweaking but I hope FS will fix most of the issues (not all, it is FS).

28

I think most specials, aside from the sniper, are too beefy. You can’t quick-snipe them without a bolter generally, takes a good number of shots. No special weakspots and it seems like negligible friendly fire typically as well. Elites are fine hp-wise.

Flamers have unusually long range, though it rarely comes up. They seem to walk much closer than their maximum range initially.

Bomber’s ability to hurl from virtually untargetable areas in some maps is a bit much.

Lots of bugs all around tough, it may be better when fixed.

2 Likes
29

I find most specials fine, with some exceptions.

A big one is that I find some of them hard to tell apart from others, and even from the generic trash crowd. The gunners, shotgunners and bombers come to mind, I have no idea which is which even after dozens of hours. In VT2 the silhouettes between all elites/specials are very obvious and clear, there’s no chance to mistake one for another. Even the similar ones like the ratgunner/ratflamer and the leech/stormer are distinct enough, especially with their different sound cues.

Another thing is it seems like there’s much, MUCH less audio cues from these enemies. The hound and the flamer have a global audio cue (the bark and the lighter spark) which is good, but it doesn’t seem like they have great directional sound, so it makes it a pain to guess where they’re coming from. Oftentimes I have absolutely no idea where the hound is coming from, as the bark is coming from basically every direction until it’s too late and it pounces on someone. The ragers have 0 audio cues either, and the trapper audio cues are quiet as hell, when they bother to play, which is strange considering how LOUD the hookrat is in VT2. The trapper literally whispers, so half the time in the chaos there’s 0 chance you’re hearing them.

Hounds are obviously extremely bugged. Their movement is frankly insane, and I’m not a fan of how tanky they are compared to assassin rats, but that I could live with if they moved reasonably so that you had a chance of dodging, instead of them hopping off of walls in a 270 degree arc and catching you after the dash lol

And one final point, the sniper’s laser color. I don’t mind anything about the sniper (bugs notwithstanding like the laser sometimes not even showing up), but the red laser amongst a sea of red lasers isn’t too great. From a realism point sure, why wouldn’t they use a red laser to blend in with all the other red lasers flying around? But in gameplay, I’ve had MANY moments where a stray shot going past me makes me panic cause I think it’s the snipers laser, and other times where the opposite happens, where I think a red laser is a stray shot going past me. I really think the laser should be green for the sniper, since as it is right now such a dangerous enemy is completely obscured by poor color choices, which doesn’t feel great.

Other than those points I don’t have much of a problem with the elites/specials though.

3 Likes
30

Psy Wrath should 100% knowckdown pox bursters

It’s already pretty stupid that you have to look at your Veteran with watery eyes any time one of them spawns because BB doesn’t kill them outright
On Heresy you often need BB + 1 staff shot
Which is still manageable except, obviously they don’t spawn alone and sometimes that means more Pox Bursters buddies
On Damnation forget about it

So it’s already bad enough for Psyker, that it shouldn’t also just ignore your class ability on top of it

31

My opinons after 140h of play an clearing everything on at least Heresy

Trappers:
They are fine, easy to dodge and kill, imo one of the lesser threats.

Bombers:
I like them a lot, I think the head should be unarmoured.

Ragers:
Still think the sounds for them are just not done or something but gameplay wise they are fine.

Mauler:
Feel like an enemy whitout weakpoint is a bit out of place here but does not bother me too much.

Bursters:
Actually one of my favorites, aside from him sometimes ignoring pushes… fits very well but definitely should deal ff. (For the love of the emperor stop shooting them if they are already too close)

Flamers:
Most of the time they seem rather harmless expect for finishing people off that are already downed, would be neat if they exploded like Flamerats.

Sniper:
Love the sniper a lot, only problem I have had so far is that he can shoot you while falling and should rather wait until you hit the ground.

Hounds:
Well they need some work for sure.

Mutant:
Mostly like them, but the 90 degree turns need to be changed.

Bulwark:
They feel very strange imo, very unclear when and how you can hit them. The shield behavior of V2 feel out of place here…

Where is the Scavenger (Loot goblin)

Also, once you have a decent weapon, the specials and elites don’t seem that tanky anymore (ofc the game wouldn’t tell you that some stats are mostly more damage which stack multiplicative)

32

I’m like 90% sure Ogryn are considered elites and not specials, and nowhere in my post did I mention Ogryn anyways. When I talk about specials I mean any enemy that only appears by spawning in with a voiceline, don’t appear in roaming/idling packs of enemies, and have constant audio cues in order to let you track where they are. This means mutants, bombers, poxbursters, flamers, dogs, trappers. Elites like dreg gunners, reavers, crushers etc. usually have voicelines indicating when they aggro but otherwise fall outside of this category. Are you unfamiliar with what the term “special” means in Tide games?

Specials in general are ranged, fast-moving, or both and will frequently require the use of ranged weapons to kill, so I don’t know why you’re talking about the difference between chain axes and axes to me.

33

also, they should be more easy to kill with ranged… the bursters are too tanky for something strapped in explosives.

Same with the flamer and the tank on their backs.

34

May I ask which difficulty levels you play on? I don’t mean to belittle you or your experience, it would just help me understand where you’re coming from.

Of course most specials are easily dealt with in isolation. The main difficulty comes when they appear during the main attraction of any Tide game, which is a horde where there is elites and multiple specials behind waves of melee fodder.

Also, like I said in another post, half of what you’re talking about are considered ELITES and not specials. Although that’s a distinction the original poster fails to make as well so I don’t blame you.

35

Specials moving in and out of inaccessible doorways just to reposition is pretty annoying, the bombers are the worst when it comes to this, they pop out, throw their grenade and pop back in again.

Bombers in general are pretty annoying due to the range of their throw and how the throw can go over solid objects, this basically means that they can inflict damage on players without ever having to enter the players line of fire. Not good, but not the worst, they go down pretty fast fortunately.

The dogs must be mainlining adderall or something, their speed combined with their erratic movement makes it a hard target to get headshots on unless they are running straight at you. If you time it and melee push the dog, a lot of the time the dog gets pushed too far away from you and runs away before you can hit it. This, combined with the low damage body shots does to the dog, makes this doggy pretty rough(pun intended) to deal with in certain situations.

My biggest gripe with the specials are the Poxbursters, my god these things are the worst. If the game does not spawn it miles away so you gotta listen to the beep come closer and closer and then fade again because it got lost, they spawn so close to you that you are guaranteed to take damage. Even if you push it away and then shoot it, the radius of the explosion is so big that you will most likely take damage anyways. And of course the Poxburster damage goes through toughness. Pretty bad unless you are a psyker doing your best sith lord impersonation.

The rest of the specials are pretty ok, sniper can be annoying when its posted so far back behind cover that you cant even get a tag on it let alone get a visual on it, flamethrowers wrecking your toughness with the slightest caress of their flames is a bit over the top as well, but at least i feel like these ones are not blatantly unfair.

36

I agree on a lot of stuff you stated here. I’ll be stating stuff from a VET using Bolter because thats the “default/desginated special killer”. Note 1-2 body shot are super statements usually mean the guy is super easy deal with as the first shot usually staggers them massively.

Bomber isnt actually that terrible hp wise. Usually 2body shots or 1 headshot

Gunner 2 body or 1 headshot

Shotgunners - same as gunner

Ragers - 3 to 4 body shots or 1-2 headshot depending on crits

Mauler - 3-4 bodyshots (weakpoint)

Crusher - 8 headshots, I usually ignore him and just shoot him with Bolter to stagger him (bolter has high stagger) for team to get free melee hits

Bulwark - Just shoot shield and some headshot, not worth ammo when you can just use 2 bullets 2x times usually 4 to let people melee him when shield is knocked aside by your bolter

Reaper - 7 headshots pretty easy to deal with actually as you said, bolter hit instantly stops his fire

Pox hound, literally impossible to deal with bolter. Trying to shoot him off people ends up hitting your teammate a lot instead of pox meaning you’re better off full autoing the dog off people. I usually just swap to power sword and slice him in half and block push him off me if he comes for me.

Trapper - Super easy deal with 1 to head or 2 body shots. Easy to dodge as well.

Pox Burster - this guy is dumb, he can sometimes take 4 bolter shots, i just full auto 6 shots at him at a good half range point. Very uninteresting enemy

Sniper - easy to deal with if you can see him, but insanely buggy with his laser not showing sometimes.

Also if special go in doors you can actually melee into the wall (like aim at the door and you can hit them weirdly)

37

I don’t have a lot of issues with specials after the beta. There was usually a reliable counter or dodge for all of it. The only thing that was so cheesy it was laughable was the handful of times a special spawned right in the open (appearing out of thin air, not coming through an airlock) and firing off a net or sniper round with no audio/visual cue.) That and the hounds being super glitchy and pouncing you after a clear failed pounce, I didn’t find that to be the case too often though.

I think right now specials and elites strike the right balance of being a notable threat above the rest. One player should always be aware of if not acting in a way to counter any elites until they go down, and all players should be aware if not actively countering specials when they make their presence known.

38

I gotta agree with some things here too.

Regular suppression specials are really hard to distinguish from the mob (especially if youre a psyker and lets not even talk about locking on them with BB but thats another topic)

Pox hound - Literally held together with duct tape. I dont find it toooooo tanky but the way it moves and behaves/circle around to realign is really damn janky.

Pox burster - Suicide bombers never should be spongy full stop. On top of this they should have two types of movement imo. The first is their regular waddle towards u and once it gets into set distance it starts charging and primes itself to blow. This would create more balance to the unit and a more dynamic gameplay imo.

Trapper - I little bit hard to notice and the shooting sound que is…kind of off? I dunno if its just borked or its an intentional bait or something but i think a bait like that is a bit excessive with the clutter of visual and sound input in the gameplay of a tide game.

Ragers - They maybe swing a tad too long to give u any breather which is a bit eh. Other than that its really just the irritating phantom range that pisses the ever living crap out of me with them.

Bomber - Either rename it to Kobe Bryant or please for the love of god lets not make him chuck a nade across a football field. The aoe is maybe a bit too much sometimes considering the tight places at times but thats to each to their own to decide.

Mutant - I think they need some type of adjustment like i mentioned with Pox bursters. Once it charges reduce its turn speed. I saw them literally charge trough the stairs of the beginning of the Silo map on heresy which is lets be honest silly af and unbalanced. I dont mind him a tiny bit bulky cuz i think a point with this type of an enemy is that when it charges u want to bait it and dodge it which is fun. It might need some cooldown on charging again or something cuz i had cases where i dodged it but it charged faster again then i can actually cast brain burst.

Flamers - I generally dont have too much problem with them cuz they try to come up in your face which is a bit of high risk for them to making it somewhat balanced.

Shotgunner - They reeeeally need a bigger spread. I feel like i get hit by a slug deleting my toughness in the blink of an eye which is a bit eh.

Overall i like the idea of them but have minor nitpick with them here or there.
I think the bigger issue is stacking them as in stacking the same one to 2-3 or god forbid 4. The other problem is their spawn and going off the grid. Imo once an enemy spawns it should never ever go out of the map again cuz thats just unfair to the players. Regular trash is enough nuisance to deal with spawning in your face but specials need a hard limited distance of spawning from set range. This gives enough time to give their usual sound que ect to the player so they can process it and counter act. A pox burster or trapper spawning in your face instantly doing its thing is beyond unbalanced. Im fairly certain this is some type of spaghetti code issue that they are already aware of just hard to fix as fast as we would like to but still its something that should be mentioned until its fixed.

39

They should explode when you hit their tanks.

40

I can live without this personally but its still a nice weakspot to them so anyone can deal with them quickly to save our toughness.