Some Feedback on WoM from a Longtime Player

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
62

Yea sure, but is this the time to discuss this kinda old mechanic that I’ve not seen anyone complain about, during the whole time I play this, while there is 5-10 other major issues with WoM that needs adressing ? It makes no sense to me.

Especially when people are mixing this mechanic with new problems while it has nothing to do with it.

Yea, for most players it wasn’t easy. And for those for which it was too easy, it wasn’t because they knew about dodge dancing, it was because they are more experienced in general.

Oh I see, but this was NOT about dodge dancing, the issue here was 1500 ms dodge window. This got “solved”, they turned it down to 500ms, but they also tweaked other systems like tracking and slot system and who knows what so now in the end it’s overdone and people are getting demolished in Legend and are upset.

So, there is no link to dodge dancing, you will get demolished with dodge dancing also.

As for QQ cancels, I agree that it’s BS, and should get fixed somehow.

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63

But it doesn’t.

You can go fire up modded realm spawn 20-30 slave/clan rats and try dodge dancing around them and see how “trivial” it is. I would bet that you will just get murdered.

And this is easy to test. I can even do it today, record it, upload and link it here. It sure is not trivial, unless you’re constantly juking the mobs over some drop down, which again you can do just fine with normal dodging + reseting also.

I think people watch some vids on youtube and think, wow, this looks so easy, it must be because the guy is dodge dancing or whatever else they come up with, but most likely it’s just that it “seems” easy when someone is watching it, but it is not when actually playing it.

Sure I agree with this, there can be huge differrence in difficulty with different graphics settings, like in dark part of the Hunger map, but mostly it is not that big of a deal.

64

Okay, replace “does” with “did”. I meant pre-2.0.

If that were true, people wouldn’t do it. The only reason they’re doing it is that they think it is a big deal.

65

But as you check high stage weave, you can’t deny they balance it for less than 1%.
Right now, on cata tier 3 weave(81-12), enemy got 30% damage buff each weave.
So, what happened is… around weave 100, trashmobs will one shot you no matter how many enemy targeting you.

For example, on Weave 109, slave rat deals 120 hp on UC.
UC has 50% DR → slave rat’s chop damage is 240 actually.
So, except IB and UC, 13 careers will be downed by just one slave rat chop attack.

Yes, there are 109+ cleared players but it need to be almost perfect run with cheeseey strategy.
Also, they grind a lot of time to just clear each weave right now.
Noobody including them enjoying high level weave but there is no patch for it right now…

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66

Yeah, for sure. I should have specified I was speaking of base/non-weave game modes in my argument. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I’m aware how the damage scaling works in those weaves. However, while it is balanced for the less than 1%, I’d argue, as you are, it’s not balanced appropriately. Watching them clear those weaves has been somewhat painful. Can’t imagine how it feels to play. You all have my sympathies.

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67

I don’t disagree with you on this point, but I don’t think either of us has a right to say what’s important for others. Though, if they want this addressed, it should be a separate thread as discussion would be long enough on it’s own.

There’s more to it, I believe. And certainly not experience talking. There’s quite underappreciation of what legend was offering. But eh, I tolerate that view from a guy I play with even if he always has three times less special kills than me.

I don’t think dodge dancing exists anymore. Prior to 2.0 dodge had long enough tracking immunity that basically it was a soft CC, now that is gone so basically the dance is no longer of same mesmerizing quality it was. It’s more of dodge shuffle now.

I actually think dodge is underpowered compared to stagger now and needs an offensive boost because compared to stagger which is damage mitigation CC and offensive mechanic, dodge has become purely defensive with no CC component at all.

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68

Dodge dancing definitely still exists, and is certainly still very powerful offensively, but requires a lot more precision and intent to dodging specific attacks while charging up counter attacks or re-positioning instead of just generally dodging every ~1.5s. The one downside to this nerf of the dodge window is that it makes playing with anything more than 75-100 ping pretty unreliable, and you have to rely a lot more on blocking and staggering than dodging. If there is one thing I would bash Fatshark for, it is the fact that they still have not delivered on dedicated servers that would allow groups to more evenly balance pings.

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69

For me, there are a couple things. These might have been in the beta forum that is now gone. I couldn’t quickly locate them to link them.

  1. In a community blog post type thing, someone from Fatshark commented that the combat mechanics were changing because some people had mastered the combat so well that Fatshark didn’t know how to add challenge for those players without changing the combat system. More enemies didn’t matter.

  2. During the beta, Fatshark said that they were designing around Cata, and then they were going to tune the changed systems backwards from there, to try to make lower difficulties feel like they used to.

They didn’t just add content. They changed the game to try to provide a challenge for the top-end players, and then they backfilled to try to limit the impact of those changes on everyone else. But IMO they failed pretty miserably at this.

(Edit: To be clear, I’m not suggesting that the top-end players had any say in these changes. I’m just saying that Fatshark pretty much openly stated that the top-end players were who they had in mind when they changed the game.)

(Edit2: Oops, looks like I already replied to this earlier. Oh well. Guess that’s what happens when I’m “multitasking” at work.)

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71

Yea, because the design is dumb and I’m saying this since they released it in beta… it’s not fun for anyone in longer run including those guys who grind the hardest stuff. And it will be absolutely dead very soon, few weeks max. Because there is also no replayability.

Damn cheaterboards and fixed weaves.

It should be much less weaves like 50 or maybe even less if they wouldn’t be able to make them different enough and those should be replayable. Like 2 per wind per difficulty maybe.

I just talked to the guy who is pushing near 100 and he is saying the same thing, that it sucks and only reason he is doing it is the frame, but they prolly will give up sooner than they get it because it’s not fun to play when damn slave rat with uber tracking will insta pop you.

As for cheesing yea ofc, for example already the W69 I got uploaded … you can’t even do it in that timelimit without pushing stuff off the cliff. That is absurd, we pushed Roger out with bomb, and both Mintaurs with FK ult. Amazing …

And the best part is that most players will be done much faster than the hardcore guys, because they either won’t be able to get group going for harder stuff or they just get stuck on some difficulty spike.

This is just another of those obvious things, that they could fix, have been told numerous times and did not because they knew better.

My experience was basically that we pushed it up W63 or so in few days, than I played 69 & 70 with other guys and than I gave up because of the pain of searching for good enough players who also have max level on specific class we needed.

So the whole weave experience even for me was 4 days or something and that’s kinda it.

Also if I decide to push few more later than I will have even harder time getting group for it, because again, there is zero incentive to replay fixed weaves. So this is prolly it for me, as far as weaves go.

1 Like
72

Yea it was easier before, but still you were not immortal.

Btw, here is the current situation of dodge dancing

https://youtu.be/WruGAvsfxGk

I could do better sure, I just recorded quick example, but I’m not fu*king up on purpose or something like that. And this is Shade with +15% more movement speed, I don’t think this looks anywhere close to trivial.

Well it does but it’s much much harder. If by dodge dancing we talk about ability to just solo hordes, especially without juking em.

I still don’t know if it’s too tight or if the issue are those crazy running attacks and broken slot system, but in the current situation the trash mobs in bigger numbers are pretty insane.

73

If your definition of dodge dancing still working is that you are able to use only dodge and avoid taking all damage without blocking, pushing, etc, then yes you are correct, dodge dancing in that sense is not really viable anymore. However continuous dodging, inter-weaved with pushing, blocking, and general strafing movement is incredibly effective at controlling and defeating hordes. Pure dodge dancing as you are describing is still viable when dealing with elites however, as their attacks are telegraphed and staggered enough that you can typically get away with never blocking to optimize dps.

74

Yea, that was the main point here since people were arguing that dodge dancing is abusing/glitching the mechanics, it’s lame, stupid and whatnot and it should basically get removed.

And also we got harder combat in 2.0 as result of this mechanic. Because elite guys were all abusing it :smile:

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75

Hi, yes that’s a totally fair argument! I can see where you’re coming from. :smiley:

I do think changes to the game to impress a new difficulty is a bit of a bizarre decision, and makes the learning curve for more veteran players harsher in some ways (vs. someone coming afresh with no gameplay experience from 1.6), particularly when those talents that support those changes are really hard to parse. I think the recent patch meets a happy medium, and outside special spam, the game feels more… “Vermintide-y.”

I’ve been neutral on stagger changes since day one, so am not super fussed, but remember after pre-release went, “Wow, I hate it all, when did I get to be so bad at this???” and really had to push myself out of that. I think most 1%ers really haven’t been affected by the changes too much so much as they have bugs (higher weave issues not withstanding).

I’ve mentioned this off the forum, but Fatshark has a lot of pride in which they don’t want to copy ideas/code (say, Grimalackt’s DW and ONS), which I guess means they had to find more creative ways of enforcing difficulty changes–which I suppose equated to changing the gameplay overall.

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76

To simplify the explanation abit for anyone who is insinuating that it’s glitch abusing dodge jump is used to bridge the time between effective dodges and the reset time nothing more.
You could instead wait half a second and then dodge again nothing more nothing less no glitch abuse is being done here
Otherwise well explained by fisker

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77

Except by jumping you avoid the slowdown that’s supposed to be part of dodge. So you move faster than you should otherwise be able to, and you get the benefit of dodge interrupting the enemy tracking. That’s why it made kiting a nearly infinite horde pretty trivial. I wouldn’t be surprised if these clips of players kiting forever also played a significant role in making Fatshark think it was necessary to dramatically change how enemies track through dodge.

78

I don’t know where you take infinite kiting from?
There were only a few weapons that had infitite dodge counts Brace of Pistols being one of them.
If people are talking about infitite dodge they are more likely referring to an exaggeration.
Which isn’t possible anymore since WoM anyway so this argument is comparing apples and oranges
I guess you will always find people that want strict and reduces gameplay fit to their needs well I guess will never understand the beauty behind Quake Speedruns then which is fine
Have it your way I guess

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79

Well, I for one definitely thought that legend had become exceedingly easy. This was exacerbated with the “Big Balance Update” in October that massively increased the dodge window, and also nerfed stamina regen amounts and timings. This, combined with buffs to existing weapons, and the new DLC weapons (especially axe/falchion) made legend beyond trivial. Being able to do DW + OS, or Hypertwitch Deed runs without a full party became a regular occurrence for me and the people that I play with. With the dodge changes in 2.0, difficulty has mostly returned to where it was for the first 6 months of the game, just with less temp health generation, especially for ranged play. I personally think that this game is at its best when all of the combat mechanics (dodging, pushing, stabing, blocking, strafing, etc) come together and are required to reach optimal play.

80

Yet there are still ways to cheese and you always have people that find a way to cheese
It’s a matter of personal taste really in which case we are arguing the typical Your Opinion is more valid than mine here
But I agree the combat as it is now is more enjoyable
Don’t forget that Onslaught is as far as I know custom scripted spawns which is learnable, that is not the case with pure RNG elements such as official realm other than Fortunes of War

82

You’ve been on my discord server a bit recently. If you’re talking about me, look at my overall Vermintide 2 play time and my last 2 weeks play time. It’s night and day. I’ve still been trying to give the game a shot occasionally because I still want to like it, but I’m barely playing it because I don’t enjoy it at all.

Or, if you’re referring to the guy on my discord server who you had a chat with about his negative review, he actually changed his review back to positive after a few hotfix patches & bought the DLC.

But, yeah, my steam review of the base game is not recommend. I do not like the game as it is today. And at this point I have zero trust in the devs that they can/will actually fix it.

Edit: here, so you don’t have to go look it up:
image

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83

Which it wasn’t.

No it wasn’t. And it’s not a fact, it’s an opinion.

I object to your use of “improvements”,that is very up for debate and opinion. At best it’s tinkering.

Then both of you should be seeing optician more often.

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