As an admech guy when it comes to tabletop, the announcement of this DLC had me nearly explode with excitement. While I expected to see rangers since they were in the trailer and that is legit the most guaranteed troop type for admech, I saw what looked like possibly Skitarii vanguard in the skill tree image previews.
As the days rolled by I saw youtube starting to recommend content on this DLC. I avoided watching anything though, as content creators love to tell you what is “meta” or optimal. Personally, I hate that since I like figuring out my own builds as I level up.
Unfortunately this lead to my disappointment when trying out the class. The left side of the skill tree (which seems to have the vanguard art) not only doesn’t have any sort of radioactive aura or something of the sort, but we are also missing the radium carbine as a weapon.
Fat Shark has implemented DOT weapons before with flamethrowers and poison from Vermintide. Why did they not go an easy path here? Legit, skitarii are binary (lol) when it comes to troops. You’re either a ranger, or a vanguard. Ranger is a sniper/rifleman, vanguard is shocktrooper with DOT aura + DOT weapons.
The sicarian rustalker build is a nice feature at least, but you need the DLC to get the headpiece and we are also missing our spindly limbs. . . Also, sicarians are technically amputee skitarii, so this gets a pass.
Fatshark if you read this, there’s people out there who would appreciate more thematic builds and classes. Instead we got an electropriest build which is NOT something skitarii are known for, and is a specialty of a separate subfaction within admech.
Now I am not saying the DLC is bad, but this certainly is a major missed opportunity for the labeled “skitarii class”. If anybody feels the same, please feel free to respond as well!
I agree the rad weapons (and talents missing on launch) is a missing thing, especially when Radium Pistol and Radium Carbine is mentioned in character creation choices
I think there was debate over the radiation from Skitarii Vanguard and being in proximity of strike team like how do you control the radiation from not causing harm (even though friendly damage is not active in Darktide) and also with having to work out the “Rad” mechanics to be like chem/poison/tox damage yet also be its own type too. We see how rad damage affects characters in Expeditions, so wondering how Vanguard can still have a radiation aura if they can correct that into the talent cog
As far as the Rad Carbine and Pistol those missing weapons imo are mandatory to be added
The skitarii in game is a Alpha Primus, so high ranking. As they are deemed individually skilled enough to attain such a elite rank, allowing them to use radiation weaponry that slowly kills the user would be a sub optimal use of their capabilities. (Also radiation would damage none skitarii teammates but I think that is a bit of a hand wavy thing since we already don’t take damage from fire and toxin when we should)
That’s the lore explanation anyways, personally I would buy it. But also I imagine they didn’t want to add ANOTHER DOT that stacks with other DOTs, there is already enough issues with how trivial soul blaze + fire + poison makes really any wave of enemies up to and including the biggest hoards you see in havoc 40. Adding another one would be frankly ridiculous. I imagine that is probably why they made electrocuted a debuff and not a DOT.
I see your point and with what is considered lore as to how come a Alpha Primus is specifically not radioactive, I can accept that as how things operate lol
Personally, lore bending is something that isn’t new with the tide games. Look at vermintide for obvious exceptions. Krueber from the empire with a bretonnian background? Kerillian being able to switch from dark elf to waywatcher? etc.
Even other games have a bunch of lore bending. Rogue Trader with accepted abominable intelligence. Inquisitor Martyr with the super blank and all the different inquisitor types (heck, they even have a tech priest). Etc
Alpha primus being a bit of a dynamic skitarii doesn’t really have any reason to not apply some sort of exception to the rad status effect. Lorewise it could be an inquisitorial modification, or just a Cawl thing. There isn’t anything that truly defines an alpha primus other than 1 mention in skitarius.
We already have cosmetics. Let the players have this venue of skitarii immersion, as it is easily doable based on features from previous games. Another thing to mention is that you could even use rad as % damage to make it more impactful over other DOTs.
The electrocution status to me was already covered by the psyker, and feels SUPER out of place given the existence of electro priests. I’d say rework the class and give us the option to build a vanguard.
Also, as far as weapons, the radium guns are quintessential so I am perplexed at how they are missing aside from the user being affected. However, if we are a super skitarii I think we can either be afforded some resistance, OR just wave it off as a long term effect that will kill the user long after the story finishes. Skitarii are after all, expendible to techpriests and the inquisition in the grand scheme of things along with every other class in this game.
I believe this is the reason… lot of dots get problems. Not blood or fire ones, but soulblaze and poison dots are a big problem that they seem unable to balance.
Well the idea with that is to give them alternate backgrounds. Krueber as a Bretonnian Knight is supposed to BE a Bretonnian Knight, not Krueber cosplaying. They just didn’t go and rerecord every single voice line for him because that would be pretty unreasonable. At least that is the intention that I see.
Technically none of those things are against lore. Mostly just because rogue traders get away with a lot and most people dont really know what AI is first off. And none of the inquisitor types in Martyr are really against lore. Anyone can technically become a inquisitor, same as anyone can technically become a rogue trader. The only reason you don’t see more techpriests and whatnot in those fields is because most have extreme loyalty to mars and wouldn’t forsake their duties. But the keyword there is most.
Vanguards do have very good radiation shielding. But very good isn’t perfect unless you are alright with carrying around like 100lbs of lead draped over you. Point is we are a elite commando type of skitarii and having us use weaponry that slowly kills us would be a bit weird regarding lore.
I imagine the lore is just that the Skitarii Alpha Primus can just wear the helmet of the class they were before becoming one. Im not going to complain about more customization really.
No? Arc weapons are like one of the most definitively admech things in existence. Personally I am more of a Mechanicum fan then even really a Adeptus Mechanicus or Skitarii fan, so including arc weapons as a main thing is very cool to me and definitly thematic for a elite skitarii.
40k Mechanicus is such a insane downgrade from the Mechanicum its not even funny. (like 90% of mechanicum things have some sort of arc weapon)
That would just make it even more broken lol. We have enough DOTs as it is, adding another one is a pretty serious issue. Again really I think that is the main balance decision there.
I think that is kind of the point of a Alpha Primus though. They Aren’t expendable. Really Skitarii Marshals and similar aren’t expendable, its just that the longterm decay of a skitarii vanguard is deemed lesser then their additional damage and combat effectiveness.
Its not about “they are expendable” and more about the mathematics of it all. Gradual decay of lesser skitarii as a trade off for increased combat effectivness is considered a favorable trade off. However the gradual decay of a unit that has proven exemplary competence is a waste when they may go on to serve in many hundreds of wars in the future.
That’s why I am phrasing it as lore bending specifically and not lore breaking. There is certainly one person in your party that is well aware of AI in that game, but they bend to the will of the rogue trader rather than the decree of mars. It is all very non standard, and games are allowed to bend the rules is my point.
Stroika, who is the only primus known so far before this game, was not treated as a valuable asset by even his own tech priest. He gets mind controlled by his techpriest, sent on impossible missions, and is ultimately used as bait for the iron warriors. He is literally betrayed at the end of the book skitarius, and idk how people want to make it seem like this class is not expendable.
The iron warriors then capture, torture and convert stroika as chaos currupted cybernetic assasin, and in fact Stroika returns in the subsequent book Tech Priest as a weapon of chaos. It’s a great read, and unfortunately the only primus to ever exist ultimately got shafted by his superiors like anyone else in the setting.
I was moreso complaining about the AOE ability and dedicated skill tree rather than arc weapons, which I would complain if they were missing too. I think that keeping the arc gun while replacing the electricity build path at the top of the skill tree/web/cog with vanguard abilities would’ve been the better approach.
Not gonna complain here as I am not familiar enough with the math. I play this game for roleplay mostly and as a form of escapism into 40k lol. The numbers and balance aspects are things pretend to not notice when playing games such as these with a voice changer :). It’s really fun!
Never said they werent expendable compared to a tech priest. But they are far more valuable then a average vanguard and letting them gradually degrade themselves using rad weaponry would be very questionable.
Arc at least to me is THE mechanicus thing so replacing it with a tree that is dedicated to something one type of skitarii use would be weird. It makes a lot more sense for them to go after probably one of the most defining things of mechanicus weaponry in general.
Plus again the choice is between a interesting support AOE that is unlike anything else currently in the game. Or ANOTHER DOT. I think the game design choice is pretty obvious.
That’s fair my point is this choice is:
Roughly backed up by lore (debatable but I think its a reasonable interpretation)
Going for Electrocution fits the broad idea of the mechanicus better then radiation.
Makes more sense game design wise (Electrocuted is a unique effect that works well with a heavy weapon support style build)
Is better for balance (Isn’t another DOT that we already have too many of, and the ones we have are already a massive balance issue)
Also do note that the skitarii electrocuted is different from other classes electrocution (electrocution is a DOT electrocuted is a debuff, not confusing at all I know)
Personally, I think as far as value when admech is concerned the order of importance is as follows.
Machine God
Omnissiah
Sacred Machines
Anything with organs
I’ve never read anything in 40k as far as mechanicum that truly values human life aside from Khepra in the Mechanicus game, but she is an outlier and a skitarii commander. They will preserve a toaster over a human life in any form as the meme goes.
THE mechanicus thing is a bold statement to make, considering that there’s mechadendrites, titans, legio cybernetica, red robes, blue lights, etc etc.
Plus, it’s another stun, similar to the psyker, and similar to stun/flash grenades etc. Creating a hyperfocused DOT build sounds a lot more interesting and stays true to the skitarii in tabletop today. In fact, with the whole radiation aspect you can create a high risk/high reward build. Make the aura toggleable, but at the cost of your own health. That sort of thing.
It comes down to mathematics and statistics. A more effective unit is a higher value unit. If the value of a unit exceeds the bonuses that dangerous weaponry provides, then it is illogical to give it dangerous weaponry.
When it comes to Weapons specifically. Arcs are probably the most common mechanicus weapon and they are extremely visually distinct. If you see a arc weapon you immediately know its mechanicus.
Its not a stun. Its a debuff. It doesnt stun enemies. I think this is a issue with the effects being called Electrocution and Electrocuted, its very confusing and I feel like people are getting them mixed up especially since the Skitarii can apply both in multiple ways.
That is correct in a general sense, but in universe the admech hierarchy still regards them as disposable like any tool (the irony being that they value what we consider as tools more).
That’s why I am unfortunately unable to buy the argument that there is some regard for skitarii units using rad weapons, no matter the role assigned. There are always ways to maintain the corpse starch supplies.
Agreed when it comes to firearms. Disagree when it comes to having electricity powers like Static Shock. That is plainly in the domain of electro priests, which is a distinct unit with admech. Again, I have no issues with arc weapons.
I can visually see enemies getting CCed, so the net effect is the same.
That is a different effect. Use the arc rifle the electrocuted effect by itself does not stun enemies.
You are mistaking value for skill and effectivness for value for human life. If the math works out that it is more likely for a alpha primus to be a larger benefit overall if they do not use rad weaponry, then they will not be assigned rad weaponry. The reason they are assigned to vanguards is because their skill and potential longevity is negligible compared to the added effect of using rad weaponry. Its that simple, pure statistics and math no care for human life or anything like that. Everyone is ultimately disposable, but that does not mean they are worthless.
Electro priests are their own more fanatical thing. It doesn’t mean that other elements of the mechanicus don’t use similar equipment. And I think arc weapons sparking between many targets is a pretty integral part of them generally.
I feel like this is going in circles a little. With all due respect, it’s the electricity ability I have qualms with. Arc weapons are fine and completely acceptable.
So by that logic, if a primus is more effective with rad weapons than it is without it, then it is justified. You can essentially make anything wield those weapons if it results in a higher combat efficiency. If touching a rad gun results in a negative kill count via immediately dying like a cadian only then is it not a viable option. True utilitarianism right there.
Sure when it comes to weapons. Skitarii are not lighting rods though.
Unless they plan on giving us skins where we can dress up as the blue man group, I am going to have this nagging the back of my mind lol.
Consistent and easily replicable skill level and skill set.
= Use of rad weaponry will increase individual effectiveness more then it wastes overall potential. Vanguard have little individual worth and are not expected to survive long regardless.
Skitarii Alpha Primus:
Likely to survive many years and combat deployments.
Unique and distinct skill level and skill set.
= Individual worth and potential longevity outweighs benefits from utilizing rad weaponry. Shortening the potential functional duration of an Alpha Primus is illogical.
Again its not just them who use that sort of arc wepaons. Yeah it would be cool if we could have a tesla coil backpack though. But unfortunately this isn’t Mechanicus where your build changes the appearance of your character.
That’s exactly what happened in the book featuring the primus, so I don’t know what else to tell ya.
The issue is not with arc weapons. It’s lighting/electricity abilities. Rad is a better fit for modern skitarii. There are active models in tabletop to represent this. You can still have arc weapons while fielding rad abilities, satisfying both camps.
No one ever said every tech priest was actually always logical. I mean, have you played mechanicus? lol
Again I have listed all the issues with switching to rad. Nevermind the fact that is a complete rework of like 1/4 of the class and that isn’t going to happen.
The faction as a whole doesn’t follow traditional human logic. That’s part of the appeal isn’t it?
It certainly can certainly happen based on feedback. I just wanted to call out the missed opportunity, which was the point of this entire thread.
On an unrelated note, the other disappointment I had for this DLC is the lack of a binaric voice option. Fat Shark if you are reading, I will give you money if you let my character speak in beep boops
