Sister of the Thorn Lvl 5 TempHp Talents issues

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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Hello Fatshark. Big text.

Looking for a new char to main for some times i ended up having a look a sister of the thorn(I ve played her a bit back to champion and early legend but my build was stated as : "i ll use her as support with the satff as main paired with ulti casting and use melee weapon only defensivly’'. Tried that a bit but it appeared that you have to melee more often that i would have liked; with the kind of tree i picked that was not helping at all and i ended up puttin her aside).

Going back to her i started to have a look at what youtube could offer as guides for her but most of them stated ‘‘the sott nerfs’’ ‘‘the sott rework’’ and other guides that appeard to have been made before that revamp, being obsolete.

Having a look at her talents and perk i decided this time i ll embrass a melee one keeping her staff as support but maining melee.Her poison debuff looked like a pretty great thing as you can stack it 2 times for 24% damage taken increased helping everyone plus its dot damage.What about adding bleed node?Since i do not use the spread on crit node but the 2 stacks i would need a weapon with decent cleave and i landed on a weapon i would never consider on elf : the 2 handed sword.She deletes Hordes and on elf the heavy on sword is pretty decent not to mention the critical strike chance being increased on some attacks at base.

However i ve noticed really fast that my temp hp was inexistant.I had the temp hp on melee kills talent and i ve just deleted on my own half a horde and i had like 10 temp hp.It seems that mobs being killed by dots do not provide that temp hp on melee kills and my build focused on applying venom and bleed to large groups.

I tried to reroll my gear to have crit chances rolls where i can plus the default +10% on some attacks and swaped to the temp hp on crit and headshots and it was even worst.

While i was experiencing situation where temp hp would just not come in and games where my temp hp where vastly provided but allies overleech i had the old guides in my head and i ended up thinking that those 2 talents have been in fact forgotten while the carrer has been changed.

She had a perk dealing more damage as the enemy had less and less hp being extremly good for temp hp on kill talent.She also had a combat buff from her lvl 20 talent that gave her a very high crit realiability.Some stuff been shaped differently aswell such as having 3 garanted crit on ulti use.

All in all i think (assuming im not that medicore at the game) that those talents do not match at all her carrier design anymore.They are just no longer practical.I assume that her healing buff perk suggest a carrier having a powerfull temp hp generation as a defense mechanic kind of like the zealot even though she must be more defensive; but as it is,she is a great support to a team, but if your team isnt there she is dead no matter her crowd control :frowning: .

Voila :smiley:

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SoT having weaker temp health generation seems quite plausibly intended given her ability to just leech for free off her teammates work. So she has the kills for temp health that works pretty badly against hordes, especially skaven ones, and the headshot&crit one that is weapon based and not terribly high normally either. Better than the other but not outrageously so.

The short answer to the problem in the end? Git good.

Long answer? Be mindful of the fact that you are a squishy mage and take care not to trade hits like a religious pig-wearing lunatic or a pants-only dwarf.

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She still had that temp health sharing when she was really stronger before her rework.If i though it was just a ‘‘get good’’ issue i would not post on the forum.It s not the second carrer i look into she is one of my last to discover.She isnt a squishy mage in her design in my opinion regarding her perks, her hp pool and more generaly the elf weapons available.I think of course she is not supposed to be a pure frontliner(thinking of Fk or ironbreaker) but so is the handmainden or WHC.Handmaiden here may be a bad comparaison but you got the idea.To me she has evident melee orientations and the lack of defensive talents was intended to rely on a powerful temp hp generation and her cc but as she is now her talents are not matching anymore.

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Pre rework SoT is not a viable target for comparision, she was just overpowered on nearly all fronts, full stop.

As for SoT not being a squishy mage, and compared to WHC, he has a perk for blocking to help surviving the frontline, he has dodge range/stamina regen as talents, he has an ability with near instant cast time to control a surging enemy wave and it also boosts his damage in melee outrageously for more THP generation. But indeed, he is also fragile in the sense that he goes down fast if actually hit. But he has more tools to avoid getting to that point when played well.

What does SoT have to help her survive? The ability to leech of teammates generating THP and a fast but not instant spell-ability on a short cooldown that lets her disrupt enemy clusters. No extra health, no damage reduction, no stamina or dodge range related perks. So if she gets caught upfront and zerg´d then she is much less likely to survive than a real melee specialist like WHC, much like any other backliner.

Her weapons? Being squishy does not equate being immobile, WHC is also fragile but his most popular weapon is the rapier that is highly mobile too.

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You seems to think i ve never considered her as ''the squishy mage who s getting temp hp from mates" while it was my very first thoughts ,like everybody like me who didnt play her old version i guess, as it is what we end up feeling about her anyway.The comparaison to her old carrer was only to point out that the talents matched the class,not denying any power creep she could have had. The WHC comparaison was vague just to distinguish her from frontliners.

Yes.
Thats exaclty my issue with her considering her perks and talents.She does have offensivly the tools to be a backliner.That is the reason why i think she needs help on her own temp hp generation.
If you have a mercenary in your team plus a zealot? things goes fine.You have a foot knight that had full hp while you had 1 hp left and he is just shield bashing a horde?You have 150 hp in 5 seconds.
Yes its working.
You are in a situation under pressure where as a handmaiden it would imply sword and dagger fight like a boxing cartoon and your team is fighting for their own temp hp just to survive?if your ult is off you are dead already no matter the fight you give.
My point is that if your team is unable to overleech she is screwed and it shouldnt be, even if it could have been an intended design, that harsh.

I never said the contrary.WHC is one of my favorite carrer to play and he has his rapier equiped.
My feedback concerns legend difficulty wich i have the most play time on.Let’ s assume i do not stand still ,waiting for temp hp when playing.
Thanks.

Remember that this topic is made on the feedback forum, not the general discussion section; this post was initialy destined to the devs and is not a philosophical disagrement on what sister of the thorn was is and will be but is made to point out ,what i ve considered,after some reflections and from my experience of the game, a flaw.

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Use the crit&headshot talent and you can leech, not to the point of a melee specialist but enough that you should not need more if playing her right. I can play her on cata just fine.

So really, its a question of player methods, if you need the overleech to stay alive, on legend to boot, you are doing it wrong. You are definitely trading hits which you should absolutely not do.

Culture here is that anything(game related) that isnt a bug-report can be discussed anywhere as long as it stays profane free and on topic as far as i know. You sent in feedback and i decided to debate it for i find it disagreeable. Fatshark reads the thread and they see both opinions in one place rather than scattered across 15 different posts with each referring to eachother crossing up and down all over.

Of course every career can be met with a situation where they are just dead, no matter how good a handmaiden/slayer/zealot is there is little they can do about a silent assassin/packmaster riding a horde that they just dashed through only to find themselves a split second away from getting grabbed.

…

But really, most of the time its a question of pacing to avoid ending up like that. Know yourself and know your foe and you need not fear the outcome of a hundred bouts.

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You seems to think that you have the mindset for a debate while opposing to arguments tips and tricks that are obvious common knowlegde of the game passed a certain point.
Like between the lines is : you missunderstanding.
What you are saying when it is not a deviation to a class or a gamplay behaviour, or assuming what i do not clearly say and make me say what i do not is, quote :‘‘git good’’.
My point is those talents have been overlooked at her rework and are now out of place,being REALLY sub optimum, like if foot knight had melee crit instead of stagger for his temp hp.

Please.
What an adventure.

If you find this post disagreeable just open a general discussion topic and have a debate there on the state of the Sott.
If i though this was the approach i would have done it there.If i posted here it s because i think it s a flaw at its core even though it s a not a ‘‘bug report’’.

Yes we disagree.We do.This ‘‘debate’’ is simply out of purpose at its really basic, and also out of place.

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And that is what i disagree with, at least partially, crit talent works just fine on her. And when combined with even a low yield from the leech passive you´ll be getting a lot. As for the kill talent…its kinda crap across all careers as far as i know.

On the contrary, you state that you feel its flawed, since you seem to feel like neither of her THP options seems to allow her to leech through a punching competition with a horde as far as i can tell. I find that entire statement to be a terrible basis for judgement and thus i refute it, or try to at least.

This is providing feeback and discussing it, which as far as i know, is appropriate for this subforum, its always been a thing. Then as for the design you call poor post rework, between her passive leech and the crit one combined with some level of mindful play she is good enough to be a powerhouse in cata while you…stated you struggle with her, or at least her THP, in legend? Sorry but this really raises the flag of me questioning if you are playing her right. And rather than making a whole new feeback thread to refute everything and conclude : “She is mostly fine”. I´d rather just talk it through here. As is normally done on these forums as far as i know.

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Yeah good continuation.

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The build with the most consistent thp reg on sister ist double sword + thp on crit and headshot. Its even better for horde clear than 2h sword. To be able to deal with armoured units more confidentely take javelin as range weapon.

So give this build a try its a very strong build since you crit damn often. The 3rd light attack has something around 30% increaseed crit chance and the 4th light has around 40% critchance.

Take +5% critchance and +10% attack speed + swift slaying on double sword

Javelin : power vs skaven and power armoured/power vs infantry and conservative shooter (ammo back on headshot)

Necklace: more health and BCR + boon of shallya (30% more healing on you - it also works for Thp regen) (imo better than barkskin since barskin only works on the second hot you are receiving within 2 seconds not at the first hit, so its only good against specials or on cata+ content or if you are really new at the game and get a lot of hits.

Amulet : power vs chaos and attack speed + proxy

Trinket: critchance + stamina regen/ curse resist

Take the bleed talent + poison spread on crit

Take mainstay or enhanced power, smite doesnt work well with dual sword cause dual sword cleaves a lot and smite only works on the first target you hit. Since you cant penetrate armoured units and you dont have a good single target attack on your light attacks and you kill most of the armoured units and monsters with javelin anyway… Smite doesnt give you any good advantage.

Have fun :wink:

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Here are the stats for dual sword

Screenshot_20230409_213947_com.android.chrome_edit_294973701152385
Screenshot_20230409_213947_com.android.chrome_edit_2949737011523851080×489 120 KB

As you can see the 3rd light attack has 25% increased critchance and the 4th light has 50%

With the increased critchance on your dual swords and on trinket you will have an additional 10% chance + 5% base crit chance which every career has from the start on. Bumping your critchance up to 40% critchance on 3rd light attack and 65% critchance on your 4th light attack. Making your thp regen with boon of shallya and thp on crit and headshot talent very effective, your swift slaying will be perma active, and your poison spread will be also insane. Just keep left clicking those rats with your light attacks :slight_smile:

If you take Radiant Inheritance you and your team will even get an additional 15% critchance on ult.

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You can trade hits a lot with her if the build is set up properly and she is quite tanky in her design.

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If you have a problems with her defensive capabilities take the traveling wall, it allows you to seperate the horde from the elites so you can kill the elites one by one.

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Hmm i think she is fine like she is, careers dont have to work with every setup and sometimes it is on you to deep dive into mechanics to make things work. If every career can play with every setup and build it would be boring. I like to minmax and dive into mechanics. And the build i have described is not the only strong build for her. I play her on cata+ as well on modded as on vanilla with twitch+deed on cata. I even have played her on skull event (geheimnisnacht) with the twins weekly.

There are 3-4 different builds for her and they almost cover every single of her talents. So i cant agree with you that her talents are outdated in any way. Furthermore imo she is the career where i use the most talents of the talent tree of all careers.

For example the dagger and sword build uses smiter and stackable poison contrary to the build i described above. This build you can pair with the staff.
You can also play this build with glaive since it has great cleave and great damage vs armoured units. It synergizes greatly with the stacked poison and bleed talents, as well with smiter.

The hunter build (it is a variation of the sword and dagger build) with jav and dagger&sword needs the talent which gives you 2 guaranteed crits after ult, as well as faster ult regen if not being hit talent and the ult which makes thornes pushes out from the ground and does aoe stagger ( cause you want to use your ult as often as you can, the wall would be annoying for your mates)

And these 3 builds are all meta builds, not any off meta things which wouldnt be viable on cata+ content

There are also some offmeta things which are fun to play like a repel build, i tried it is very different and indeed offmeta but also fun on legend and cata.

Btw if you are playing aggressivly with the hunter build you can even take thp on kill since you are the one with the highest single target damage, even with sword and dagger and if played properly you will have the hunter buff active permanently.

20% damage increase from smiter, 24% damage increase from poison and 25% from hunter is making you the elite killer number one in melee. But dont forget you only use your jav for getting hunter and vs monster. Most of the time you seek melee combat to take advantage of smiter as well.
Monsters should be engaged in melee with javelin after you have triggered hunter with a thrown javelin to deal the most damage possible (hunter can only be triggered with a ranged javelin attack).
Dont forget to use your ult to get a 100% critchance before you throw your jav at the monster so you will trigger hunter with a 100% chance.

Playing hunter build with glaive isnt recommended since you changed the bleed talent for the 2 crits on ult talent.
But if you are playing aggressivly and being a brave man you can take dual daggers and thp on kill talent to squeeze out the highest single target damage possible on sister.

Keep in mind with sword&dagger you should use push attack + heavy attack combo for single targets to deal the most damage possible.

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Her poison doesnt deal dot damage, its only a debuff, the bleed talent is the dot.

Sorry that i am writing that much, but calling for a rework because she has mostly not viable talents and outdated mechanics without obviously taking a deeper look which mechanics are synergizing was making me upset a bit.

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THP on kill is only viable if you kill elites, the 2h elven sword is the worst weapon for this talent. And its also a bad option for thp on crit. Because it has poor crit modifiers compared to dual sword ( see my post above where i explain the dual sword build).
I also have shown you some options for thp on kill builds on sister as well in one of the posts above. I refered to those builds as “hunter build” and “sword and dagger build” and mentioned some talents and other weapon options for these builds.

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Ah another one.

I had checked the dual sword thanks i also have the armoury mode installed.
This was one of the 1st weapon i though about because of the heavy linesman on its heavys, thedecent cleave and the crit, but mostly for an easier swift slaying uptime than for the thp.I was enthousiast to check all unused stuff.

No thanks for the javelin.I obviously didnt consider the javelin;i am someone distracted !

Ah my bad.

Oh really? This one my favorite .The weapons aswell but i mean the the quote .

Nevermind this one win.By far in fact.

Thanks guys for pointing out very unexpected and valid points (like the hunter mode switch on a garanted crit build) ; what was i thinking really.I ll really try to persevere to get good.

Also guys i cant help myself (as you saw) but may i suggest you two to become friends with each other? I can feel some profond affinities; this could lead you guys to really extremly deep and interesting conversations and who knows, maybe, so much more.

Cheers.

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Check out this awesome build by ChocoB that was used to solo Deathwish even after the nerf! You can find it on Ranald’s Gift here. There are also some other great Cata builds available on the site.

Apologies for joining the duo and making it a trio against you, but personally, I haven’t had any issues with gaining THP as SotT since the nerf. Elf melee weapons are highly effective for health-on-kill. I would put SotT is right below Handmaiden in terms of durability.

However, all the elf careers are still incredibly potent when it comes to dealing damage in melee. If you’re struggling to gain THP with SotT, then it’s likely that you may face similar challenges with the on-kill THP talent on other characters as well.

I’ll add, SotT is a great career for Cata, and THP on kill doesn’t scale with difficulty, so if it’s difficult on Legend or Champ, it’s probably not a bad idea to consider how you tackle hordes of trash enemies; also for THP on kill, timing those breakpoints for the kill on things like Chaos Warriors and monsters when low on health.

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I guess he is already playing this build, and in solo runs you will almost never struggle with thp regen because all enemies are yours.

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If it was construtive i wouldnt care.
I ended up with the exact same tree that chocoB has there already but chocoB come on he is on another level.Pleased he uses the 2h sword also even though i do have more defensive properties, ignored crit rolls and went 2stamina block cost and i stick to curse res for grims.Cant imagine having even less life in quickplay.

Be my guest at this point they will hardly be beaten.I would be impressed.
My experience with cata is that s it s in fact more chill than legend;books are ignored, ppl have experience, they play the team.They are ppl that do not care about the loot anymore.When you say you get a red they say they have 1000 boxes they dont care about.I find having 2 grims and a random team in legend in fact harder than cata.

Yeah before waystalker and shade right?Interesting.

Here we go.

It 's pretty stunning that you guys seems to think i ve been writing the 1st post in complete cluelessness of all the evident things said in every each of your posts.
Like really you think someone who s trying to main the sott do not know sword and dagger, or javelin?nor whc or handmaiden?You think what?before sott i was playing The Smurfs?If i considered it was just a gameplay adaptation and understanding i wouldnt have post.Im used to legend i have like prob close to 80% of every carrier gear in red.You think what i was someone completly clueless?

In 1st post i mention i ve been checking many guides before having a deeper look at her and it has been the process for every each carriers. You mention chocoB i beleve every person enjoying vermintide has been looking fiew of his solos or partyknife guides or ranald website.
For instance before her i played the huntsman to 100 victories for his hat.I ve read everywhere ppl consider the Huntsman in a bad spot but spear and shield and longbow it was awsome,no issues at all he is one of my favorite class now.

I just maintain my 1st post.Again.

the chocoB run with the linked build.1 minute in he is a god already im sorry its not something to achieve by ‘‘get good’’.If everyone putting effort in sott could reach this im Mary Poppins.