Thank you for the response. I’m curious to see how the narrative and character interactions will unfold, as it seems a bit puzzling at first glance. While I understand the characters’ ideals and allegiances aren’t set in stone, including a Necromancer on the team seems like it could strain the story and character dynamics as we’ve never seen any indication that the characters’ personal journey includes tolerance of Necromancy.
It would be helpful if the introduction of the Necromancer came with an explanation of how the team is embracing this change or at least tolerating it, as it’s not clear so far. Also, I’m struggling to see how accepting a Necromancer contributes to the character’s personal growth, especially considering that it’s likely Sienna who has shifted her stance, rather than the entire team.
Even considering Sienna’s perspective, this adjustment doesn’t align with her established character arc. She has primarily dealt with her addiction to magic, without any indications of being drawn to Necromancy. Her faith seems to oppose such practices, which brings to mind the Myrmidia references and objects around the Keep. Is her faith evolving, and if so, will this be reflected in the story and the Myrmidia elements in the keep?
As for Saltzpyre, his unwavering devotion to Sigmar makes this decision quite a stretch. Perhaps his growing fondness for the team, particularly Sienna, plays a role, because he may not fully consciously admit it or realize the attachments he’s forming. To make sense of his commitment to Sigmar while cooperating with a Necromancer, I’m hoping for an explanation that clarifies his perspective as well as Markus’ since we know Markus had lost his mercenary company to necromancers if I recall, which I thought that friendly fire voice line was included; keeping the “not a necromancer” voiceline might be more confusing than ironic.
I suspect Lohner’s Chronicles will cover some of the reactions to her reveal in time. It will change how they view her, but they won’t stop working together (I assume, as that would make the game quite awkward ).
I’m not arguing whether the others would be happy with this change in career, I’m arguing that it’s COMPLETELY CONSISTENT with Sienna’s character and Warhammer’s lore that she’d turn to Necromancy because there’s already a very clear precedence made in the exact same timeframe (dialogue makes it clear that Gelt has gone Necromancer already and the Auric Bastion has been successfully holding back chaos)
I get some people are looking for an optimistic redemption arc for their favorite characters, but Warhammer has been known to throw characters stories around.
Like none of what you posted, the general populace’s turning their back on Gelt, his pariah status after the fact, the Bastion collapsing, etc. NONE of that is an argument against Sienna becoming a Necromancer. Balthazar Gelt KNEW there’d be blowback against him if what he did was revealed. He knew that going in, but he did so because he felt times were desperate enough for such drastic actions, and that the ends justified his means (and let’s be honest here, he turned out to be right, imagine had the Auric Bastion fallen much sooner). A lot of your arguments appear to stem from stuff happening that only we as the audience would know in their story. I don’t think the other members of U5 will just shrug as you’re insinuating, but I don’t think their negative reactions are enough to dissuade Sienna’s decision to become a Necromancer either. The lynchpin here is SIENNA’S judgement that becoming a Necromancer is the best route to go for whatever reason. Maybe this was an escape from her losing battle to her aqshy addiction. Maybe she thought Necromancy would be a more efficient path to fight chaos
Or heck maybe she’s given in to her dark urges and is beginning to embrace dark magic after getting a taste of it during the Tower of Treachery mission. But this is all very much in line with Sienna’s character.
Normally I’d cite moments in the lore and story to support my stance, but it looks like we’re looking at the SAME sources and coming out with different conclusions so…that’s kinda funny tbh and I don’t know what to say lol
They’re extremely well aware of it. Even back in V1 there’s been comments that it’s the end of days during mid-mission banter.
And in the Chaos Waste a lot of dialogue directly alludes to several End Times events such as the giant chaos invasion being held back by the Auric Bastion. Brettonia’s woes. etc. In fact their very attempt to enter the Chaos Wastes is very much because they’re desperate to fight the End Times. Saltzpyre becoming a Captain is itself a sign of things going to hell.
I mean, that’s just story-telling as a whole. Some might like how it’s going, others might not. It’s up to the author to tell the best story he or she can. I don’t know what else to say except…stories don’t always have to go the way some of the fans want them to go.
Like me personally I’m familiar with Warhammer enough that this is very much in line with her character.
But most importantly…
Kerilian becoming a SoTT is absolutely NOT a positive thing for her in the story nor has any dialogue indicated as much. It’s clear enough she lost a lot of who she was to become a Sister, more Dryad than elf, and so on.
Well, it has been quite an unexpected announcement for me! When I saw the trailer I thought that Sienna would use a bit of all the winds and I even thought that she would endow her flames with the power of the winds of magic. I could even be an alchemist! But necromancer was the option that I considered least possible… until a user here posted every piece of evidence in this regard. The truth was there all along.
I don’t know how this will turn out in the narrative regarding the relationship between the heroes, but I think that on one hand it can work. That is to say, I think that everyone has already accepted that it is the end of time or something really happens that is beyond their current capabilities, therefore they have chosen somewhat difficult paths to combat great evils.
Now I will be honest on another point and that is that if I believed that Sienna would take action on the matter regarding Sofia and my theory was that she would try to lock her up inside herself, that prophecy did come true!
Saltz has mentioned many times that these desperate times lead to desperate measures and surely he will welcome that Sienna has made that decision and as for my trust in Sienna? Total. After all, she has always spoken on certain maps when she sees the deceased, how she would make pyres to give them rest and even sympathize with them… I think Sienna will be a new necromancer and maybe, if my prediction comes true again, she will be able to hear the voice of the dead and they ask him to command them to fight against Chaos. After all, Sienna is compassionate, and if she’s managed a little empathy with Kerillian, surely the dead will give her their blessing too.
I think Kerillian tried to follow a path but it wasn’t working and she was probably resisting embracing these new dark powers even though inside she felt she had to.
She has made it clear that her decision is risky but here again this “evil against another evil” to have some hope in the war against Chaos.
Iirc, the nameless voice (Bel’akhor) talk to Kruber in Castle Drachenfels and mention that he is fighting for gold or something, and not a great purpose
@GreenColoured Bro are you a necromancer irl?
Fresh account and posting in every thread here cheerleading for Sienna abandoning everything she’s been trying to prove for her entire time with the U5.
This is probably why I’m not as angry at this as many here seem to be. I feel GK as a “reveal” betrays the character design - humble empire soldier - more.
Ah, I didn’t know about this, thanks. But what about Shysh? Isn’t it the wind of death?
Anyway, my thought is this: this career is more a continuation of Sofia’s storyline than Sienna’s. And it tracks: it ties with A Treacherous Adventure and Sienna voicing the idea that Sofia isn’t really trying to win. I take it as that being Sofia’s way of introducing herself to the Ubersreik 5, and she’s really quite playful in her twisted way (“tremble before my creations” ). I think the trailer shows her true intentions: joining/merging with/controlling Sienna and helping the U5 with the End Times.
I may be wrong, but I really enjoyed what little we saw of her character, and I want to speculate even further: we know Sienna killed her for being “exactly what the witch hunter said she was”, a necromancer that is, and it’s possible Sienna herself was blinded by the prejudices surrounding the practice and didn’t stop to consider the intentions behind that choice (you know, like a brash personality might be quick to judge and condemn Sienna’s own actions). Is it possible Sofia, like her fiery sister, had good intentions all along, and this is her way of showing it?
All we know for sure is that Sienna didn’t choose this path: in the trailer she shouts “never”, before succumbing to whatever’s happening, and - perhaps most tellingly - if you have subtitles on, the last few sentences are the only ones without a character name in front of them.
Is it so crazy tho? His lineage issue aside, Krubs has participated in more chaos killings than most Brettonians lords ever did up until the end times. And even when in that competition he holds up rather well i think. He basically has a gigantic resume of killing darn near everything chaos has that a mortal could possibly kill and even pushed the limits a few times.
Most mortals dont just send 1-4 people to dumpster a whole crew of chaos warriors, regularly.
No, but they did try and he had to flee for his life back to Vladdy. And the Sigmarite Church decided to effectively “torch” the wall since he built it.
Problem with Dhar is that it inherently corrupts the users i am fairly sure, on the basis that its the eight winds used all at once and disorderly. Humans explicitly forbid the practice and thats why the single element focus thing exists for them, anyone not following that gets the Witch hunter home visits.
Issue is just that Necromancy is explicitly Dhar, and humans cant use any form of Dhar without going evil. And that´s not touching on the fact that the entire rest of the crew all utterly abhor it.
The SoT case is a bit hard to judge, she doesnt seem quite sure she did the right thing with it indeed but to to highlight the uncertainty, she does have a line that goes something on the line of stating that she became more extreme, not just the bad but the good as well.
Still has the mood to poke fun at Bardin while discussing it though, so it shouldnt be all bad.
My understanding of it is that the lores do not really corrupt as in making people evil/crazy, but they do affect the users to a significant degree as they improve their mastery. Like Aqshy making its users be fire-happy and passionate. For humans at least.
Elves seem less prone to be affected. And they can use multiple or even all winds without going into Dhar mode with practice.
And on that note, Dhar is a level beyond , it causes mutations, it drastically empowers various darker impulses and it also makes chaos corruption happen a lot more and faster. While also polluting the surroundings which in turn amplifies the negative effects on the user. Really, power with serious strong downsides. And though i am not sure if necromancy specifically carries the amp’d chaos part it still has all the mental, physical and environmental downsides.
It’s actually moreso that I made this account primarily because I couldn’t think of any place to discuss Vermintide besides Reddit…and a while afterwards Sienna’s career was revealed and it’s like the only active threads and one highly pertinent to my interest in the game.
Besides…if not Necromancer what else? Another variant of a bright wizard? More fire?
Yeah this is one of the reasons why GK is my least favorite career on Kruber and is so far my least favorite DLC career. Thematically I always felt it offered the least to the character both micro and macro level. Plus the Brettonian sword is straight up powercreep whereas I can still see a reason to use a bow over javelin or greathammer over cog hammer.
Shyish is simply 1 of 8 winds whereas Necromancy uses Dhar which is a collection of whatever the hell the caster can grab from the air at that moment in time. So for all intents in purposes there might not even be any shyish in a necromancy spell at certain points.
The distinction of the two is inconsistent and differs based on the writer. Shyish is more or less just the bringing of death, accepting the life ends and taking the soul or life energy out of something. Necromancy is straight up manipulation of the soul, rejecting natural death to stay alive longer. Necromancy corrupts faster than death magic. Of course then you read about Elspeth Von Draken and the water muddies as it’s not clear what’s actually true and how much is in-universe propaganda.
The question is how long it takes to corrupt as that’s never been specified. It could take an amount of time that goes well beyond the scope of Vermintide. It’s not like playing a character using corrupting dark powers is a new thing in fantasy settings. If you believe the end justifies the means and dark powers is needed in such desperate times, the potential future corruption might not even matter. That’s one of the most common justification used in most heroes turned villain cases in Warhammer so it’s no shocker if Sienna goes through that logic too.
But my point is that a good character CAN and WILL turn to Necromancy if they feel times are desperate enough to do so. Gelt knew people wouldn’t be pleased if the news spread that he’s using Necromancy but he weighed the risks and deemed the political blowback a worthwhile risk over chaos marauders and daemons spilling into the Empire.
That’s a similar headspace Sienna could be in to explain her turn to Necromancy. Despite losing, Sofia did prove formidable enough to require the entire U5’s combined efforts to take out. That’d be tempting for someone trying to fight against the end of the world. And to a magic addict that’s like some next level drug.
The different lores/colors of magic don’t exist in a real sense. The Winds of Magic that come from the northern chaos gate are for the most part just that, Chaos (40k would call it Warp energy).
After the last great war against Chaos, Teclis concluded more “mages” were needed than the elves could provide in order to adequately fight Chaos. As plentiful as humans were, and since they were also creations of the Old Ones, they could use magic similar to elves; but, were very susceptible to being overwhelmed and corrupted by it. So Teclis had to invent an entirely different way of teaching for humans. He created a simplified (by elven standards) way of visualizing magic, that in terms of colors. And in his teachings he forbade his students (who would go on to form the colleges) from ever trying to visualize and control more than one color.
From a practical standpoint, I think of it in terms of looking at the sun. If a human looks directly at the sun (Chaos) they’ll burn their eyes out (be corrupted). So Teclis created “magic sunglasses” way of thinking. If you filter out enough of the light (7 of 8 colors for instance) then the light is low enough to not burn the human’s eyes (mind/soul) and they can use the light they can visualize to cast magic related to that imagined color. He forbade humans from trying to use multiple schools of magic (fewer filters) because the the less filtered they were from the “light (Chaos)” the more likely it was to burn (corrupt).
Dhar (Dark Magic) isn’t so much a different form of magic, as it is a technique of manipulating it. Quaysh (High Magic) is also just a technique. All elves can learn/use both techniques, but due to ideological differences (that resulted in a civil war) Dark Elves mostly use Dhar and High Elves only use Quaysh. Dark Elves can and do use Quaysh, but other Dark Elves will probably make fun of them for it (ie. call them weak which in DE society is invitation to being attacked). High Elves that use Dhar will probably be executed (think public stoning for heresy). The risk between the two can be thought of as heat loss, where that heat loss can mutate you or just create havoc in the area.
Quaysh is a “safe” way for elves to control raw-Chaos, but it requires time, patience, and self control in order to channel it so there is very little side-effect (low heat loss). Dhar is also, relatively speaking, a “safe-ish” way to use raw-Chaos, but there is a lot of unfiltered Chaos (high heat loss) that escapes from the control and thus why it corrupts users very quickly (but not nearly as quickly as raw-uncontrolled-Chaos).
As a side note, Necromancy doesn’t really control souls. The opposite actually. It completely erases the soul and replaces it with Dhar-controlled-chaos. This is why demons tend to hate necromancers, because the necromancers turn tasty-juicy souls into crap. Think someone cooking a big fat juicy steak into ash. Such a waste.
).
). I think the trailer shows her true intentions: joining/merging with/controlling Sienna and helping the U5 with the End Times.