Sometimes I feel that you do give blanket statements without giving enough nuance to different situations where the statements would not hold up. I do understand that we’ll have opposing opinions on some issues with the game.
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i think there’s a fundamental problem with brutal momentum,
as its sole existence is to negate a a drawback on a weapon
if we concede to the idea that every weapon in the game has advantages and drawbacks, giving a select few a ticked out of them, is a problem
for the sake of argument, lets say there are two metrics that define weapons nothing else:
AOE(dps) and Single target(dps),
now if we have two weapons, to chose from
- the first being weapon-A a total AOE powerhouse 5/5 stars in AOE but only 1/5 in Single target.
- and Weapon-B the polar opposite 5/5 in single target and and 1/5 in AOE.
now with this pretense in mind we apply a boost (blessing) to each of them.
scenario one,
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give weapon-A a 2 star boost to its AOE capabilities so its a 7/5 stars in AOE and remains a 1/5 in Single target.
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but give weapon-B also a 2 star boost to its AOE capabilities making it a 3/5 in AOE, and a 5/5 in single target.
wich is more desirable?
however the reality in tide games is that the players kinda need weapons to do everything at least to an passable degree.
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I personally hate how mandatory brutal momentum is and in that respect I really think its stupidly designed blessing that should probably be changed or removed from the game.
HOWEVER, I also don’t really want axes to be something they were in vermintide games, hyper specific and rarely used.
So if axes cleave values should be altered to get rid of brutal momentum i would be totally okay with it.
There just currently ain’t a fair trade off between axe that has brutal and one that does not, the other is just strictly better/easier to use in my view.
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I fully agree that BM has a fundamental issue since it kills pretty much the only drawback e.g. axes have. Single-target weapons shouldn´t come with a good waveclear on top, they already have sick damage and stagger.
I really don´t know why it´s THAT issue here to run those high DPS weapons without waveclear in DT. We already had them in V2 without BM or huge stagger that interrupted overhead-attacks… and it was easy playable.
Also just pick the chainaxe. It´s in a really good spot if we compare the damage and stagger to its obvious drawbacks… and that´s how any weapons should look like to call them somewhat balanced.
And here is the point i disagree to some degree. The player doesn´t need weapons to do everything. That´s why you pick a mix out of 2 weapon-categories like melee for waveclear and range-weapons for armoreds, maybe the other way round…
You could also adjust feats as much as possible. It´s like playing Psyker with anti-elite weapons while using AB for waveclear. Maybe even play Vet with chainaxe and bolter but use the grenade feats to decimate a horde before it´ll reach you with nearly unlimited ressources.
That said, there are different ways to play around the drawbacks certain weapons SHOULD have. And such a way shouldn´t be like “pick BM and enjoy easy LMB spam the whole mission”.
Nothing against some allrounder-weapons that are like 2,5/5 waveclear and 2,5/5 singletarget. They should be a thing as superior-weapons should obviously outscale those allrounders in their niche, but have to be worse in the other.
BM shouldn´t be a thing… especially on high DPS weapons that attack with an overhead for easy weakspot-kills. And while i highly doubt that it´ll get removed, it should atleast get nerfed so that it lasts for 2 additional swings and then goes for 3-4s or so on cooldown.
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thats the thing i don’t find melee weapons in darktide to be incredibly potent in their favoured scenario with a few exeptions ofcourse
yes single target weapons are faster at killing big dudes, but they are not fast.
in vermintide2 in cata, the strongest single target build take between 1-3 hits on a chaoswarrior to kill him, and im not even counting shade ult just.
the closest we get to that in DT are weapon specials
i didnt meant that weapons need to be good in every role, but they need to be adequate
if we go to the utmost extreme, lets say weapons literally couldn’t dmg enemies they are not mean’t for
so a horde weapons couldnt deal a single point of dmg to elites and monsters,
a elite killing weapon couldn’t deal a single point of dmg to hordes and monsters,
and a monster killing weapon couldn’t be used on hordes and elites.
im conviced even the players with the greatest knowledge and comitment of the tideseries like J_sat, Fuplaayz or grimalackt wouldn’t be remotely close to the difficulty content they are playing.
of course weapons need to have strenghts and weaknesses, but the tide games aren’t mathematical formulas where everything works out perfectly if you input all the correct factors
we are human we need room for error.
players need to have the tools not to be precisely be capable of overcoming something but we need substantial aid to even come close.
quite abstract way of looking at it i guess.
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I do think BM is frankly a bit TOO good on Caxe specifically. I’ve been thinking for a while what I’d do about it and honestly I’m not terribly sold on the suggestion I’m going to make here but it’s the cleanest I can currently think of.
I’m leaning towards the idea of just replacing BM on Caxe with Savage Sweep. Still easy to activate with push attack then self sustaining in hordes once it’s active. Multiplies with power bonuses so with a max cleave roll Cave V and max Decimator stacked you could still hit up to 6 poxwalkers per light attack. Would by no means butcher its ability to handle hordes pretty safely but you would definitely feel not being able to chop right through any number of elites in front of you.
Pros:
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Maintains the ability to significantly soften Caxe weakness against dense groups just in a less extreme way than BM
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Doesn’t invalidate the cleave stat on MK V like BM does, if anything helps it better differentiate the different MKs of Caxe
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Requires a bit more active input than BM to get started. BM activates with little player effort by just spamming lights roughly at head height, Savage would require you start your combo with a push attack but then can continue to spam lights as long as you continue to have a group of lowish mass enemies in front of you. May have to weave more push attacks in when dealing with bruisers and Ragers mixed with horde. I think that slight bit of added thought process would be enjoyable.
Cons:
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It’s still a noticeable nerf so probably will make a good number of people mad
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Feels like a kind of bland, “lame” way to address BM
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Would probably hurt SS and Psyker a little disproportionately more than Zealot since Zealot’s passive faster melee animations (and access to more with feats) somewhat help compensate a cleave nerf, they can also afford to hit trade more so don’t need as much CC to be survivable.
Any comments on further pros and/or cons you think I missed for this suggestion very much welcome.
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Slayer build to kill CWs with 1h axe and pre-nerf SoTT against bosses & monsters with meme-axe. That’s about it?
Honestly, from personal experience with both Taxes and Caxes I disagree with this, once you combine BM with other blessings, perks and feats it can mulch through hordes decently fast (obv better against higher health enemy groups) yeah it’s not the quickest, but the stagger it provides also makes it fairly easy and safe to do it.
Why is everyone acting like I’m screaming at FS to nerf it? I was asking what people think about it, or how they would change it to keep it strong but maybe not as good.
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I have said the same thing above. This is the reason why we can probably just leave BM alone. It definitely makes the normal axe way too good. But as others have pointed out there’s a bajillion other weapons that just need to reach this relatively low bar so they can feel good too.
For that matter the Chain Axe is at least a third place competitor if you know how to use it and have the right blessings. A few new melee weapons and some buffs would bring things in line. Nerfing a weapon that is strong but DEFINITELY doesn’t remove the fun for anyone else is just silly.
I made this case with the flamer and powersword too. The reason the flamer needed nerfing was because it invalidated the gameplay of others. Powersword less so and we all agree they nerfed it too hard and in the wrong ways. based on the polling we did here on the forums. Or perhaps i should say they nerfed the character out of it even though its still strong.
BM Combat axes are strong, and its kinda lame that they are the SSS class weapons, but its not a problem for anyone else.
Not to worry, I understood you at least. I know you were just bringing up a dedicated conversation because it’s come up in other threads.
BM on C.Axe is decidedly strong and maybe we should look at it and bring its strength down a bit on C.Axes without gimping the whole setup. Maybe instead of ignore hitmass its reduce hitmass on Combat Axes.
I still favor just leavin it alone for now.
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Yep you are right.
You can pick both, my build is mainly for vet where it allows you to maintain 100% toughness against shooters even when no elites are around when ult is up (the ghost is just pretty much overkill). It isn’t really that much of an RNG since you can reach 25% Critrate and at that point, it becomes pretty consistent with the Laspistol’s high rate of fire.
Yes, you are hyperboling a little.
The fact of the matter is that a lot of items are in a good spot now (read: usable, strong, but won’t carry you all by itself).
The exceptions to these are the undertuned weapons and Blessings, which are:
->Clawsword
->Eviscerator
->Chainaxe
->Shovel
->Recon Lasguns
->Infantry Autoguns
->Slab Shield
->Helbore Lasgun
->Surge Staff
->Underused Blessings overall (Not gonna make a list for those, admittedly it’s too many here)
So what I’d do as a dev is I’d take each of these candidates and give them a LIGHT push.
And then balance is perfect.
Under no circumstances would I nerf any of the Blessings that are currently meta. It wasn’t too long ago when Blessings meant nothing. Finally some just make some impact and people act like it’s a problem. NO!
If I put a Blessing or Improvement on my weapon, I want to see it’s impact and feel it. Otherwise it is a terrible “improvement” and you might as well use White Gear. Not even joking.
I believe this is the real motive for your desire to have currently decent options nerfed.
You feel that the balance is wrong because you look at it from a lore lense. You feel goaded into using the Combat Axe because you think you’d otherwise miss out on opportunities and power. And maybe you are even slightly offended that the Chain weapons currently underperform. Maybe you are not. I can’t tell.
But then instead of asking for a nerf on Brutal Momentum and other decent blessings or the weapons they apply to, you should really ask for buffs to these undertuned weapons or it’s Blessings (which they do need in my opinion, too! 
) instead.
Eviscerator needs a boost, Chain Axe needs a boost. Chainsword seems fine atm.
That said, they are usable still. Not even terrible. Just not the current best meta. But I see Eviscerator Zealots in Damnation all the time and they seemingly live just fine, often clutch successfully even.
They’re clearly more defensive options than the Axes. But that’s alright.
As someone who uses the Tactical Axe primarly and finds the Combat Axe revolting for it’s hilariously slow attack swings that leave you very vulnerable to attack, I don’t get where all these “Combat Axe too strong” arguments comes from? It deals more damage per swing than the Tactical Axe and trades in Attack Speed and Crit Chance for it.
Just like back in the Flamer nerf discussions, I don’t see people acknowledging the weapon’s weaknesses or they handwave them away a la “it doesn’t matter”.
Yes it does matter. The swing speed of the Combat Axe is easily 15% slower than with the Tactical Axe and many other melee weapons. Only two-handed weapons have a higher wind-up time.
If you can make it work with it’s Blessings somehow, great. My experience is it begin one of the harder to use melee weapons, because your reaction time is hardcapped by the attack speed.
Offtopic i know, but when i see this list and be like “Hey, i use half of them regularly and beat damnation with it.”, while also not caring much for meta-blessings, then i really don´t know if we play the same game.
First of all don´t get me wrong… this shouldn´t be a post like “look how cool i´m and what i can do with something you consider to be bad”. It´s just that i don´t get behind this “buff please” mentality.
What poeple consider to be “useful” is already mostly too powerful if you´re somewhat skilled at the game and its basics. And this is no impossible step or something.
Evis, shovel, surge… etc… all of this is completely fine to deal with heresy+. Ofc something like damnation high int will force more efford out of those weapons compared to others, but that´s why it´s one of the highest difficulties. It should force huge efford out of the player…
And i don´t even want to talk about blessings… some are busted, many are fine, some are ofc really useless. But bringing all on the level of the busted ones? How many difficulties do we want, 10 and 9 of them are pointless?
Really no offense against you, i´m just generally tired of it and the direction of the game with all its bandaids. I just need to look at all the Evis-threads where poeple just DON`T WANT to get used to attack pattern or consider 3-4 hits “useless”, because everything with less than 10 hits is trash, i know… i mean a horde has like what, 50 enemies? And it´s all about winning right? Because that´s more fun than engaging with a gameplay that actually offers depth and skill-ceiling instead of just “gear and stats”, and ofc LMB spam…
Realistically speaking - every weapon is a left click machine due to how stamina regen functions. You always want to attack everything that’s in front of you so everything gets staggered. Axes are not unique in this regard in the slightest.
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Brutal Momentum doesn’t even come close to Sott bs so stop the cap. This is a bad comparison.
It’s not as bad as SoTT, but that’s where crap balancing leads. The weapon needs an upside and a downside, brutal momentum 100% ignores the downside of combat axe and makes it way better than any other option for zealot on damnation. It’s left click through anything without any investment, and it takes away from the gameplay as it makes the game to easy for the player AND the team - like SoTT.
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Even without Brutal Momentum Caxes stay lmb spammers as is every other weapon in the game. You always wanna be hitting everything that’s in front of you so nothing hits you. There ain’t much reason to be blocking in this game so lmb spam it is whether with or without Brutal Momentum.
I agree that having a blessing that merely serves to negate a weapon’s weakness is probably not good design, but considering how long it takes with it to kill armored targets (its forte) I seriously believe the issue is blown out of proportion.
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Not flamer bad, but still should be fixed imo. The hardest difficulty should not be 100% mindlessly leftclicking, the game and the players deserves more of a challenge than that.
FS is looking to rework the Slab shield rather than just buffing it per Catfish on discord.
Eviscerator HEAVY CHAINSWORD needs some help
Chainsword is pretty weak. I have no idea how anyone could say its “fine”
Chainaxe is actually the strongest of the lot with Slaughterer AND Headtaker. It’s able to compete as a third string choice after Combat Axes and Heavy Sword.
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Can you tell me where you find the base critic rate for all weapons? Thank you.
About the last comments, CA with BM permits to clear hordes. Not as effective as an heavy sword, it doesn’t wipe enemies like a PS, but it is just behind the 2.
So this is REALLY strong.
However, don’t forget that a Caxe has some cleave. When several will realize it…
As often (but not always), I agree with Deisu. A Caxe doesn’t wipe magically an horde. A boltgun does it. I have just finished a game as a zealot with an heavy sword and a boltgun. There was a zealot with flamer. I did more damages than him, even if he used his flamer from beginning to the end (he used an evis less than 10% of the mission). When I see how I can wipe horde with an heavy sword, well, the Caxe with BM is far away behind. When I see how I can wipe magically everything with a bolter… everything is behind it.
Definitively, there are several weapons that, in term of removing fun for others, are above the Caxe (what said Deisu).
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