Shade rework idea

theres no doubt that headshot dealt less than stab (stab + headshot is obviously stronger when combined).
i tested on both in-game and break points calculator.

spear isnt the best of all nor overpowered.
the current game is more like best defense is a good offense,
which is a problem of handmaiden, if one is skilled enough theres no need for additional stamina regen, block angle or dodge distance, these unnecessary quirks.
i wouldnt mind if fatshark change the value inside the formula, but spear has the lowest stab angle (90 degrees).

for dual swords they wont get any angle adjustment - actually, most weapons are - but just ultimate damage change. just in case if you haven’t read my explanation of codes, dual swords will have 180 degrees of stab angle. thus ive no idea what youre talking about.

To be honest, I don’t have any proficiency in coding (my experience is a bit of copy-pasting HTML over 20 years ago) so I ignored any code you suggested, as I cannot make heads or tails of it.

So, without that, you want the backstab angles to be in direct relation (the larger the block angle, the larger the backstab one) to the weapons’ Block angles, which it sounded like in the beginning, and which I took to being the case; or in inverse relation (the larger the block angle, the smaller the backstab one), which, in addition to still being needless complexity, would just, well, invert the problems. Dual Daggers are already very popular on Shade, the latter option would increase the disparity between them and other weapons again. It would also make Spear near-useless.

And again… why fix something that isn’t broken to begin with?

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The way I understood it (not the kind of code I usually dabble with, I misunderstood it at first),
he/she wants to make daggers weaker at backstabs because… reasons and increase their backstab angle in turn.

the reason why i think this will be great is current state of shade.
shade is meant to slay tough units, thus must pick a weapon that synergize well to her ability.

daggers - no doubt output damage with this one is pretty savage. but it has lack of block angle, cleave and stamina. damage isnt great too (without ult). for somewhat reason double chop only dealt a single time.
sword and dagger - one of finest cleave, great ult damage.
etc - ew. dealt around 1/3 than dagger with ult.

with change of my idea daggers will have larger angle - thus make it stronger in general in normal situation.
dont really have to care about being behind of an enemy. rest will have same angle but increased damage of ult - thus all can be used as shade’s purpose.

playing shade with daggers / sword & dagger all the time make me think its very typical. other weapons cant even be a argument.

let me clear my words for you.

  1. make stab angle depend on block radius of a weapon.
  2. make every weapon deal fixed damage with ult.
  3. tone down output damage / adjustment to my codes will be okay. ill totally accept it.

Personally think it sounds little bit redundant considering how backstabs are already used in the game. Sure if backstabbing was something you were actively looking in every single fight i might see it interesting but currently getting 1 backstab off even in a horde is pretty difficulty without using abilities.

with my method approved you can use dagger for that.

Not really even with the backstab talent currently it feels way too iffy so the angle would have to be from basically frontal attacks which is not exactly backstabbing at that point is it?
I think the mechanic itself is already flawed that your system on top of it makes little to no sense, even if it might be practical to code it.

The daggers are already one of the strongest weapons in the game and you’re talking about buffing them for a class that can already solo kill bosses in seconds. Neither they nor shade needs to be any stronger.

Back stabbing isn’t hard, it’s unnecessary. Everything except chaos warriors and bosses already die to a frontal head stab.

dagger charged headshot strike inflict around 17 damage whilst other melee weapons light on body does 12~17.
guess its one of the strongest huh? even with all these lack of defense (40 block angle, 2 stamina)
it has been good, but not anymore.
backstabbing is working indeed against bosses. so dont you dare say its unnecessary.

You put too much weight on the raw damage numbers. They’re only part of the reason that the daggers are so strong.

They have higher than average mobility and burst damage in a meta where mobility and burst damage are what make a weapon good.

The charged stabs will oneshot most enemies even without critting or backstabbing. The first is a downward vertical strike with a long reach, the easiest type of attack in the game to get headshots with. And you get two of them with every attack. That means twice the crit potential as well as a greater chance that you’ll do lots of damage even if you miss the headshot.

The lights attacks have additional crit chance and apply a damage-over-time effect. They’re also near-flat horizontal swipes with a simple back and forth attack chain. That means that your position in the chain has no effect on your gameplay, which means you can focus entirely on keeping it at head height and spamming until all the trash is dead while you dodge around and be generally untouchable.

Edit: The light attack chain might be an interesting place to look to add some variety to the DD playstyle.

The low block angle and stamina are irrelevant because you shouldn’t be blocking or pushing much (and because dual dagger’s pushstab is pretty terrible). Complaining about these things is like complaining that a Ferrari can’t tow a big trailer while it’s in a race - It’s just not something you need to do.

They’re not weak just because they’re not your preferred weapon. They’re still one of the stronger weapons available to a hero whose entire weapon set is stronger than the average.

It is unnecessary. Stabbing a boss in the face while you’re cloaked will take out nearly half of its health. More if you crit. Everything smaller will be oneshot regardless of where it’s looking. The only thing backstabbing is useful for right now is regenerating ammo, and even that isn’t a great reason to do it because the daggers themselves will kill almost anything instantly and going for backstabs when enemies aren’t alone is risky.

dagger: low cleave, lack of defense. meant to be one of the strongest offensive weapon.
but in reality damage isnt great, which make me think - whats the point of this? without the exception of shade’s synergy its near useless above all. just see how people perfer sword and dagger over the top - better cleave, same ult damage and more defense. wht dont you face the truth? theres no excuse for current daggers. each light took 5 + some dot damage overtime. change reverse is quite indeed.
lastly, numbers are everything. every games, every science could be existed because of it. without math, i bet we all worship illogical faithes by name of gods.

p.s. ive no idea how you one-shotted most of mobs without ult.

  • if weapon have headshot bonus, will perform greater than stabbing. otherwise better stabb.

It doesn’t have a lack of defense. The strongest, most reliable defense in the game right now is to simply avoid being hit, and dual daggers’ mobility makes that easier to do. Light attacks cleave just fine and I’ve already spoken about how they do lots of damage.

Dual daggers have synergy with all of the elf classes. Waystalker has extra headshot damage, which synergises well with those double stabs and horizontal light attacks that are so easy to land on heads. Handmaiden has extra dodge which boosts the daggers’ already high built-in mobility, which boosts your defense. Outside of the shade’s ult, the daggers are arguably better on waystalker and handmaiden than they are on shade.

Again, just because you can get results with another weapon doesn’t make dual daggers weak. Don’t forget that you’re trading elite killing efficiency for that extra cleave and stamina by using the sword and dagger over the dual daggers.

No, numbers are not everything. In this case, one of the strengths of the daggers is that it has powerful attacks for any situation in any position in the attack chain. There’s no block cancelling, no wasting swings or special combos to get to the one you want - It’s just always there exactly when you want it. Sword and dagger might be strong, but it doesn’t have that.

Headshots, my friend. Always headshots.

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ive no words to say, whatever i told you, you just strongly disagreed with it - without comparing.
truely, why do you…
all i mentioned above was fixed detail of an weapon, but you dont bellive in these however.
keep bringing another method to prove it can be used - yes it is, but fairly weaker than rest.
dont you get what im trying to say?
theres no reason to wield daggers over the top.
dodge bonus? many elven weapons have 25% bonus and sword here can chain-dodge 99 times.
you just cant say its the most defensive weapon due to dodge.
you cant headshot to one-shotted most on legend - at this point im pretty sure you dont play legend often.
elites killing? are you even serious. ever heard of glaive or axe?
numbers are not everything in this case? such a wonder where did you learned that. meanwhile most can cancel whilst swinging.
synergy with carriers? waystalker head striking will perform better with others, sword is better with handmaiden in dodge wise.

It sounds like you’re trying to say that dual daggers are weak and need to be made stronger. I’m disagreeing with that and I’ve explained why.

is it just i misunderstood your words or you dont face the truth.
keep prove yourself by against numbers with self-thoughts.
such a wonder theres still a person who worship himself and abandoned the math these days.

Well I do think I’m pretty great, but I don’t know if I’d say I worship myself.

I think you’re focusing on comparing the weapons against eachother and not on how effective they are in game. Dual daggers are still very reliable and very effective, regardless of what the raw numbers say.

isnt that how balancing works? comparing then adjustment.

Yes, but you don’t just compare weapon vs weapon and be done with it. Balance is about aligning the reality with the intention. It’s about working out exactly how the game is supposed to act and feel and then finding the numbers and mechanics that make the real-world gameplay line up with that design.

That’s why I say numbers aren’t everything. Numbers are just one of the things you use to make a weapon act the way it’s supposed to. It doesn’t matter if the hits of the daggers’ charged stab do 10 damage each or 100 damage each, what matters is that the stab performs as designed and intended in actual gameplay. More specifically, what’s important is that it feels the way it’s supposed to, and there’s more factors deciding that than just the damage each attack does.


and here im sayin’ numbers belongs to daggers are in fairly weird place.