No, because then when people do play in coordinated groups, such as Weaves, the competitive part of V2, the game can just become broken and too easy.
Four people who aren’t on comms and aren’t using the same strategies is in no way a good thing to base balance on. Then you just end up with four Merc Kruber’s because noone is playing properly.
This goes into the amount of game knowledge required to play this game on the higher difficulties, and the fact that you won’t learn half of it, or will pick up bad habits by playing on the lower difficulties, or when the game is made too easy via Career/Weapon/Build.
In QP the learning curve is much longer than a premade group, and if you play solo, as many people moving up to Cata from Leg do, in QP, then you’ll just start losing matches or causing yourself to die.
The game is being promoted as a co-op experience, which isn’t very expensive. Official sources from FS promote grouping via different Discord servers, meaning that’s the way they planned the game to be played.
The difficulity of this game and the neccesity for teamwork shouldn’t suddenly be ignored just because Merc’s Ult makes bad play more forgiving.
So as long as something is useful for the top ~0.1% of players who play weave 120 then its fair game for everyone? Absolute bollocks. Complete and utter rubbish.
There is no circumstance in which brushing up a few bleh talents and extending an aura to beyond spooning range will degrade the “co-op experience.”
If you add a competitive mode to a game, you probably shouldn’t suddenly change your entire balancing philosophy to firstly dumb down the game, and to homogenise it by making all of the Careers do similar things. You should try to promote more skillful play, learn what the skill potential is and balance around that.
This is a PVE game, where you can just keep learning because the enemies will always have the same AI and mechanics, until they add new ones, so if anything it’s a better idea to nerf overperforming mechanics rather than buffing other things that don’t need change.
It will though. Positioning is is huge part of teamwork, so quite literally increasing the range will degrade the co-op experience by making the positioning unnecessary. As I said, dumbing the game down.
In the case of FK, this directly changes his playstyle, which is to be a support/frontline for higher DPS lower defence Careers.
This is exactly the point. It shows that the mechanics work if you use them properly. You’re asking for the dumbing down of something which isn’t even difficult to use in the first place.
You’re asking for buffs to something that’s performing better than most of the other Careers in the game at the highest competitive official difficulty in the game.
Moreover I guess I’m part of “that 0,1%” who reached weave 120… and I still think FK has some aspects to rework.
Exactly… we are missing one point. Everyone has his opinion. Someone can think “he’s ok”. Someone else can think “he needs a rework”… but change some “meh” aspects (like +5% damage reduction talent, wich is simply worse than +20% BCR, or Valiant Charge that in many cases can stagger one only elite) doesn’t make FK over power and doesn’t ruin his stye… simply refine some “raw parts”.
I agree here. Using premade groups as the basis for the balance for everyone else is completely ignoring the largest part of the customer base.
Maybe we should just get the people who can Solo CATA runs and balance each class around them? Maybe anyone who plays QP should be diregarded?
@Kitten I agree with almost everything you’ve said about FK, and I think he doesn’t need a rework - in fact he has the most versatile build potential with the lowest amount of “meh” talents, but this comment that balancing around QP is not the right way to go makes you sound utterly elitist and very sneery towards the vast majority of players. Maybe we should just pick one player to balance around? Find the person who is the best? Everyone else isn’t using the class properly?
In fact, I might suggest that people who almost exclusively play QP and enjoy success might be higher skilled players than those who always play in a premade, as adjusting to the varied different skill levels and play styles of other people in QP makes you a better player. Is it possible that playing in QP means you utilize MORE of a classes strengths than those who play in a premade?
I understand why you’ve said this, but in answer to you saying I’m being seemingly elitist and in response to your comments on balancing:
This is my mindset. It’s difficult to be elitist in a PVE game, because you can just learn what you’re doing wrong and fix it. Most of what I see on these forums is people complaining for buffs to Weapons and Talents that they’re using incorrectly or building wrong.
In other words, the learning curve will always move towards what the more advanced players are doing regardless of the way you play the game (premades/QP), it’s just that QP has a longer and more painful learning curve than playing in a group. Again, it’s a PVE game.
I’ve probably played more build/Talent/Career combinations than a large amount of the people on these forums (I literally spend time I’m AFK to test builds on different Careers to see if they work and in what situations, rather than playing the game for enjoyment), which is why I’m usually quite outspoken when it comes to saying what I think when someone says ‘x doesn’t work or needs a buff’.
The only way I’m better than anyone is that I have the patience to spam roll items on the crafting system to try new builds.
The only Weapons I haven’t really tested are the 2H Swords because I find them extremely boring, no matter which Career I play them on. WHC almost saved them with Flense, but I still couldn’t be bothered. (Kruber and Saltz, Elf Greatsword is fun)
“Most of what I see on these forums is people complaining for buffs to Weapons and Talents that they’re using incorrectly or building wrong.”
I should add that I know this because of the perceived weaknesses they’re expressing, not just because they’re saying the things suck.
Also to address balancing around QP:
My main modes of playing are either duos with bots in private games or in QP alone or with one other person (unless randoms I’ve got added start joining). These games are almost entirely a mess of people leaving and joining, with a mix of playing properly or just reverting to duo playstyle because the people who joined ran off and suicided and left the game.
I don’t understand how you could even get a consistant enough gauge on QP before even starting to balance it to begin with.
Should we balance around all of these Battle Wizards who run off alone 24/7 and walk into Boss walls, die and then leave?
BH players who only ever block until they can shoot?
Slayer who has run off alone playing solo?
The invisible bot while we wait for someone’s 4 hour loading screen?
People all joining as ranged Careers and not being able to keep up with an ambush/event situation?
People standing in drop spots with no way of communicating that they’re about to die to them?
The Regen using RV with Mining Pick who ignores heals?
Or should we balance around playing in a co-ordinated group, where you can explain what people are doing wrong, why their positioning is bad, why their item management is incorrect, and who have smoother and more succesful runs?
And the speech is even simplier! That aggressive FK (= that FK that uses every power and attack speed talents) is a weaker copy than Merc is true also into a coordinated group.
Those problems I reported into the first thread, are present also into a coordinated… just to do a simple example, even if you play with your mates, you can’t wait that every elite stacks each other (provided that sooner or later they do… they could remain separated too) before to use Valiant Charge.
It is all about incentives. I’ll play the elitist and say Merc is easier to use the greener the player, mainly because he is the starter character. Crit chance for free, buffs for cleaving, ULT for any problem(and CDR). Merc rewards the most basic skills needed for the game
FK rewards more seasoned players by incentivizing position, proximity to team and utility(stacking to enhance team cleave, knocking things down so others can kill). FK rewards more advanced plays and strategies.
QP, pick up or premade group, none of that changes.
To be on topic 3 seconds of vulnerability on ULT is trash, so is 5% damage reduction. FK has so many build possibilities(every other talent has a place) that it doesn’t bother
I’m not sure how the formatting will turn out on this quote, but I’d like to point something out here. If I wanted the ultimate tank I’d chose FK any day (post WoM introduction), for tanking and survivability support in a group. That’s pretty much also why it’s used in the more difficult weaves. Would I ever use the tabky FK build on any other occasion though? No, most definitely not. It would be unnecessary and crippling. I wouldn’t be able to make gold use of it and more offensive play would be more rewarding.
I do appreciate that you can build the FK super tanky but I also recognise that I will rarely do so. The too efaves example is not about elitism. It’s about showing potential, but that potential is situational. Would you spec a shade for boss damage, and run qp if you knew you couldn’t get through the map unless carried by your teammates? Probably not, because the extra viss damage doesn’t do That much of a difference.
Even though its overkill in most situations, there is still place for it and its nice to have the option.
Guys, I really enjoy all these comments under my thread but please, don’t misunderstand my words. We have a hot speech about FK vs Merc. Well… I touched briefly that point too, so it’s not off topic, but, as written, it’s an advanced speech.
It’s important proceed step by step… the priority should be those aspects that should be FK’s peculiarities but that don’t work as they should (Valiant Charge that can be stopped by one only armored enemy and that, for some bugs, sometimes can’t knock down a CW… or Staggering Force that doesn’t help FK’s main weapons like Shields).
Anyway, this clarification apart, the most important thing to notice is that I was comparing AGGRESSIVE FK ( = FK that uses every power and attack speed talent) vs Merc.
And NOT the classic TANK version.
The problem is that I was comparing aggressive FK vs Merc. That FK build uses Taal’s Champion… this means that he loses the aura and can’t protect his mates anymore.
Totally agree.
Sorry, I don’t know if I have understood your point, but this is valid for every tank. Tank careers work mainly at highest contents… it has always been this way.
For this reason tanks “didn’t exist” in 1.6… there was not need of control. You could just delete everything with dps careers.
I can understand that an aggressive FK can be funnier during easier contents… and that can make them faster (compared with a tank FK). But, while during highest contents tank FK has his niche compared with Merc, aggressive FK can just be good for “fun runs”. When you really need a dps/crowd control careers, Merc is way better.
My bad I did skip a bit the whole discussion. I agree with several things :
Auras could use more distance. At the moment, they’re useful when you don’t actually need them. When there’s a crisis, it usually mean that the whole team have to move and often divide to cover several key spots (hordes and boss, or sniping elites, or dashing to destroy some sort of banner). Usually out of the aura very fast. Which is a bit annoying.
FK should be invicible during the charge at its core. Not as an added talent.
Despites both of thoses things being buffs, FK is currently not ‘bad’, he lacks more build options (even fun ones)
Personally to give my opinion on OP’s suggestions:
I would keep the aura size as is, my reasoning for this is because it’s a passive its always active. paced strikes or whc boost having a larger radius is fine because you have to do sometimes to get it, its not active all the time, yes its easy to keep it active but still.
(also its called protective presence, how can a fk protect without being present? xd)
Counter punch is fine, You can still push for free requires a bit more effort which is fine in my eyes
Defensive formation could be chosen if you take alot of damage that you either can’t block or you can’t react in time, but its miniscule so i am neutral on this one
Taals champion, pretty sure can be used to reach some bp’s or stagger bp’s, maybe even range.
Don’t give invincibilty to his ult on default, honestly fine now.
His attack speed talents are great, enables every weapon with no effort.
The suggestion of his ult moving trough or being able to stagger multiple armored i dont agree with, or shield not being able to stagger a cw. His ult is on a super low cd, even lower when attacking, if you see a cw just ult it. The issue of ulting a cw on the floor and it getting up instantly is annoying but i think that happens because players push after they ult.
Frankly, I don’t think this is a huge issue at all. Weaves are not at all a popular mode.
I would much rather that the entire thing died out than QP become unbalanced because we start balancing around an entirely different sort of difficulty with an entirely different power level base. QP is absolutely the primary way people play, and there being a single mode with a leaderboard that had people going ??? before it even launched doesn’t change that it’s primarily a casual game.
Saying we should neglect the vast majority of players to balance around premades playing a completely different gamemode is insane. Particularly when the way weaves make difficulty is so incredibly boring. You should balance around how the game actually works, not around how a niche spinoff mode added in a DLC does.
I didn’t say it should only be balanced around that, just that if they’re going to have ‘official highest difficulty’ modes, then they shouldn’t be made easy by bad dumbed down balance.
Meh personally apart from the odd bugs FK has i think he is reasonably balanced currently and has some decent variation on the talents department.
The reason i run huntsman or mercenary over him is simply because i find the play-style to be incredibly boring and it relies on other people in the group to be actually useful which is not always given in QP environment.
The same goes generally for any kind of “tanky” builds especially utilizing shields. You are practically hoping the people who you are supporting can properly play around you. If not you will be mainly just dead weight and better off with something that kills faster.
I don’t think they should be much of a consideration for balance at all honestly, it’s a DLC mode that most of the playerbase doesn’t really engage with that functions completely differently to the rest of the game. I could agree if you were talking about cata, where it’s at least the same rules as every other mode.
basically how I play FK since his “tank”-build is the most boring experience one can make.
Don’t even understand the Ult changes… you can place a whole Pat of CW’s on the ground with Valiant Charge… things just get messed up with follow up staggers (they pretty much make enemies stand up immediatly sometimes…), I mean it’s ok if you think it should go through Armored, tbh I use the full charge maybe 1/20 times… I almost exclusively use it stationary, so I don’t actually care about it.
The effect of the passive auras are not impacting enough to require a little size of effect.
Except for maybe paced strike, which could be changed a bit to have a part of it given by the active.
You can compare it to ranger veteran passive which kinda pop ammo as long as it’s active wherever the dwarf is. Making the character more themed and more impactful.
The other thing is it kinda opens the design space for an aura build for ONE of its career, which could be a bit fun. (With some kind of doubled effect when you use your ult or something like that to not be too strong and a bit more active).
I’m not saying to make passive auras large like “active” auras… but we need an half way. Current auras are really too small… it’s enough to see any streaming. They are active for only a very short time. The problem gets worse during “bad situations”, when the game often forces you to separate.
But at this point I can just pick Merc.
This is a little unfair for FK if we think about how many moments of invincibility IB has.
In fact, the FK’s talent that gives 3 seconds of inv, it’s almost a mandatory choice… otherwise the ult can result too risky, while it should be a safe panic button.
It’s sad, but since in this game there are more candidates that can fulfill the same niche… you have always think about what the “rivals” (IB, in this case) offer.
If Valian Charge doesn’t stagger elites like it should (often you see an horde of elites but you can stagger only the first one), it loses every peculiarities… and I can obtain the same results simply spamming bash + push with IB + “infinite” stamina regen.
About Shields, I find pretty unfair that Staggering Force doesn’t work with them.
Moreover, since IB has a much higher toughness, would be nice if FK had more stagger power.
Totally agree… except one thing.
Idk what you mean with casual game but, even without leaderboard, Vermintide is a game of skill… I mean, you have to be good and and you have to put your efforts.
I write this both to defend the game and for criticize the leaderboard… Vermintide doesn’t need that. The proof that you are playing well is simply completing the level or the challenge.
This can be true… but aureas’ problem is even worse. Since, also playing with mates, often you can’t exploit them (auras).
I use the ult the same way… for this I wrote a “second option” too. Currently, when you “meet” an enemy that stops your charge, you create a “bubble” of stagger. This bubble could be larger, in order to stagger more elites.
I mean, I don’t demand to stagger 15 Chaos Warriors at time… but we need an half way.
Because I find it very frustrating when an horde with many elites come, I feel it’s “FK moment”, I charge them… and then I see only the first elite has been staggered. I feel like he are missing its job.
you can place a whole Pat of CW’s on the ground with Valiant Charge… things just get messed up with follow up staggers (they pretty much make enemies stand up immediatly sometimes…)
Valian Charge could have a counter. You can knock down (and continue your charge) X number of armored enemies before get stopped.
The problem that enemies stand up immediatly is a bug… and it should be fixed as fast as possible.
Anyway, this clarification apart, the most important thing to notice is that I was comparing AGGRESSIVE FK ( = FK that uses every power and attack speed talent) vs Merc.
since his “tank”-build is the most boring experience one can make.