For the surge staff specifically, the playstyle that simply outperforms veteran autoguns without recourse is the primary m1 spam. It has very similar metrics as a veteran who fully invested in an autogun build, but it’s also just better because it passively reloads while it’s tucked away and does more damage and doesn’t cost ammo and it comes on Psyker who doesn’t have to pick exec stance to make it do that much damage and still gets to do all other Psyker things. Reloads faster and is more accurate. It’s fallen out of fashion a bit because other build archetypes powercrept it.
Speaking of those other build archetypes, the purgatus staff is a 1:1 example of a free weapon that’s just better than the non-free version, the flamer. The flamer comes with obscene movement penalties, obscene swap time, needs to do a little animation to actually start flaming on top of that, and has a long reload. The inferno staff is fast, light, swaps quick, charges up quick, and to make up for all of these upsides it has the additional upside of doing way more damage than the flamer because of how Psykers soulblaze mechanics work.
I know that’s generally accepted that the inferno staff is crazy strong atm but I just wanted to point out how similar this actually is to why the surge staff, and why psyker peril mechanics are problematically strong, it’s the same root issue.
Well some things were nerfed. Were any of them unreasonable and shouldn’t have been? Is there right now a focus on anything that doesn’t need to be nerfed? OP is very dramatic of course but he’s right that flame staff is a big balance problem. I think rather than trying to sense a pattern it makes more sense to look at the actual merit of what problems there are and how people want them solved.
For the first point, I’ll just say I specifically said surge staff charged attacks as my example. In that context, veteran is generally faster in the vast majority of situations. I am not an M1 spammer, if anything I am an M2 spammer, so I’ll argue from that perspective as thats what I know. I apologize if thats unsatisfactory, but I can hardly argue things I dont know.
For purgatus staff vs flamer, yes, you are outright correct. Thats what this thread is about. To be clear, I am not against purgatus nerfs. It just depends on what form the nerfs take and if it effects other unrelated builds in a negative way. If you want to be extremely specific, I’m worried about my own very non meta build suffering due to people pursuing purgatus staff nerfs. I’m also concerned about the risk of purgatus being inadvertently nerfed “too much”.
As a hypothetical example, to me this is like nerfing “bleed” because a weapon based on using bleed does too much damage and applies it too easily. Nerfing the weapon specifically is fine, but nerfing bleed as a mechanic itself hurts every other weapon/trait/blessing that uses bleed. In other words all the other unrelated builds suffer to address the original issue.
Lastly, my point is that those things were nerfed, yes, and then the conversation has immediately gone into other things that apparently need nerfing. Its exhausting. I don’t think you can blame people for not wanting nerfs when the conversations about them seem endless. If it was up to some people, I swear we’d only have identical sticks for weapons. Maybe thats embellishing bit too much, but the point is something is always overpowered in someones eyes.
As people had this conversation so many times already, the core issue can be encapsulated pretty well in one picture (props to Reginald or whoever created this meme):
I’m aware, I just wanted to clarify what about the surge staff actually is “autogun but better” and why it’s very much the same issue as the purgatus staff. Reigning in the surge staff is a low priority because it doesn’t scale well into havoc so it’s fallen out of fashion anyway but it’s still kind of bad balance and should probably be addressed at some point. Nobody plays it because it’s not that fun to just spam those little balls, but they could maybe redesign the staff M1 attacks at some point. In VT2 they were all staff specific, in this game it’s just the same little balls on every staff
Fair enough on the overall balance point you make but I think those things are up to Fatshark individually to balance out in detail. There’s a couple solutions to the flame staff being pretty crazy that they could work out that would also make it way more fun to use, I think.
Again though. Justified or not justified? Why is it exhausting when people have merited concerns about OP things even after one thing has been fixed? I think the conversation seems endless because Fatshark is dragging their feet so much. We’re on 2 years of the dueling sword dominating the meta and making every gamemode into crusher spam. It IS exhausting to keep asking for this to be balanced properly, too.
This is fair enough but I think that there’s an objective measure of balance disparity to this (refer to the post above with reginalds chart that Jan posted just now)
As the disparity gets smaller and smaller, the issues get less and less burning
It definitely is, especially with how quickly it stacks up. I’ve been bringing twin linked gunlugger into havocs (premade and party finder) and its been churning out damage, the burn alone making up 500k-600k of the 2.3-3.1m damage its outputting, even on rotten armor. It nearly instantly stacks up a lethal amount of burn (400-500 dmg per tick, able to be buffed by some blessings) on everything short of bosses and crushers, even allowing bulwarks to die in less than a few seconds while just hitting their shield. Not only that, but the ammo refund buff has made it so much more ammo efficient that in most of these games im not hogging the ammo, more often im taking less ammo than someone else like a vet or arby.
i said this a few times: warp unbound is imo the culprit. to me, the biggest challenge in learning psyker was managing peril under pressure. it’s like playing with 2 health bars. take that need away, as WU does, and life as psyker becomes simple. it’s well meant i guess, but it takes away from what makes playing psyker different, and i blew myself up a few times from becoming too used to it.
The game right after was me and a.a on gunlugger/melee ogryn respectively with 2 randoms as zealot and arby from party finder in rotten armor, one of em said “I think we need a vet or psyker”
How about we buff the rest of the weapons instead?
Idk: Give bolters more ammo? Same for Ripper guns
Chain weapons special should do some actual damage to Carapace? So these weapons have an actual place in havoc?
Lasguns with different fire modes and more headshot damage?
Just top of my head.
I like the 10% I enjoy them, it’s fun for me to use them. Buff the rest, so I can enjoy them too.
Am I the only one who is very tired of being told that my needs do not matter? Why is it that I can sit here and consistently propose ways to make the game better for players across a wide range of the game. But the moment I ask for ONE (1) difficulty to be designed for me and similarly skilled players i am suddenly “gatekeeping" (being discriminatory)?
I bought a 4 player co-op game that has a deep skill curve and I want to PLAY a FOUR PLAYER co-op game with a deep skill curve. Not a solo or duo player co-op game that’s only hard if I gimp my load out. I want what I paid for!
Honestly not too sure as ive not tried it, does make it better into crushers but im not sure its worth giving up all the extra damage you get from everything else, cuz it was making up a significant chunk of my damage. Would very likely be a case by case basis for different weapon
1 + “Stop asking to nerf everything”
2 - “How is asking to nerf 10% of the arsenal equal to everything?”
3 + “Oh you know what I mean”
4 - “What do you mean”
5 + “You can use the rest of the 90% of weapons”
This makes no sense, this is an unrelated answer to a question no one asked
I asked you WHY you said people want to nerf “everything” and 90% of the weapons being usable is your answer? No. Address the comment directly
