So this has been brought up before but I think it bears posting about again in holes we get an actual discussion (the last times nobody ahs replied to other users posting it so it has been auto-sut-down).
Red items, and what would they look like in this game?
There are a few options for implementing red items:
1: the rolls are all maxed, 80% everything and blessing spawn at their highest rank (also access to that mythical 25% HP and 20% toughness curios that have been datamined as possible curio blessing values but nobody has found higher than 22% and 18% afaik). This isn’t really in the design philosophy so the below suggested chances should be cut at least in half to account for them clearly wanting grind to be a par of the game.
2: Red weapons are the same as orange BUT have a 3rd new unique blessing slot from a pool of 3-5 weapon type-specific unique blessing that can’t be changed and have a baseline of 70% on everything before it randomizes the stat rolls as well as a smaller extra perk that is not from a pool and is fixed based on weapon type (think like +5% attack speed). This would still have a factor of RNG but every weapon would be very usable (70% in all 5 is not the best but is actually a very high roll as far as power rating is concerned) and with 3-5 potential options grinding would still be encouraged.
3: Red weapons are the same as normal weapons but have better baseline roll (as above) percentages and no locks which is indeed a potential third option. Boring but many complain about locks so here you go, a way to grind the locks away.
But how would one get these amazing God Emperor-rolled items? Good question.
Easy: implement the a similar system from vermintide 2 for red weapons.
Starting at malice you have a small chance of getting an extra gift from the Emperor on mission complete and the odds go up for higher difficulties and are modified by mission modifiers. Let’s say malice is 1% , heresy is 5%, damnation is 10% and maelstrom adds 5% with other modifiers giving 1-3% depending on the difficulty increase they provide. Auric simply has doubled chances with auric maelstrom giving a 50% chance of that extra item and a 10% chance the normal reward is upgraded to a red. This means players wanting mull around in low difficulty still might get lucky but players are over-all encouraged to push the harder content and get better at successfully clearing it to get better rewards. It means on average players will get one red every 3-4 successful auric maelstrom clears which I think is reasonable given the difficulty and potential to further increase the difficulty as they rebalance things after the talent tree implementation gave us too much power.
i think there’s no point in red weapons that have new features locked to them when everyone wants more weapon customization. reds were only a good idea in the first vermintide, and the changes to weapon bonuses made them pointless. maybe you want red weapon skins that only very rarely drop from the very hard difficulties or during special events or something, but this is just asking to increase the people that never stop bitching about “locks”.
No, people don’t want more customization, they want locks removed. Which fatshark has already given us their compromise and is not likely to change any time soon. Please do not bring up locks in this discussion unless it is to suggest red weapon which are the same as normal weapons but have better baseline roll percentages and no locks which is indeed a potential third option.
Maybe if you stopped complaining about locks for a second and put some thought into a way to implement lock removal that does not compromise their obvious design goals (which include locks, clearly) we may actually get what you want. I mean really you come here, to a post about red weapons just to complain about locks. get your own topic or find one of the may still open topics about that very subject if that is all you have to bring to the discussion.
you still haven’t posted any reason why red weapons would be any good besides “i want more lucky RNG for people to rage about” and “we want weapons without locks” which are both bad choices.
its the name i gave it, so this might be homage to the suggestion? even if nothing carried over. anyway anything that gets rid of any amount of RNG layers gets a pass from me
I wanted to open a thread myself, specifically talking about the problems of red items in the game, but i guess its enough to say it here.
I highly doubt red weapons will in any way surpass the strengths of current orange items and i even doubt that reds would drop with the highest current numbers possible, because both options would invalidate the current resource spending system that Fatshark created. Even though this system is terrible, it is still a system where resources are usable for a very long time, not like in Vermintide 2, where resources just stacked up when you got red items, because you needed to use very few resources to change the red items to your liking.
We have the problem of getting reds. Its either through emperors gifts, which is already a bad idea considering we are only getting one item after a run and a red drop will certainly a rare sight, or we get them through crafting, which begs the problem of developing a system where baseline stats would need to randomly increase when upgrading an orange to red, if reds should have higher baseline stats to begin with.
I could see reds being just standard weapons with a third unique blessing, but even that would just lead to frustration because you just have another rarity tier to pay for with another blessing based on rng. Not to mention the option of earnable blessings here as well.
Still, if reds come into the game, people expect them to have an advantage and i dont really see one that doesnt include invalidation of the current system or just further frustration, which is most likely a reason why Fatshark didnt put reds into the game in the first place, because they dont know how to implement them without significant negative factors.
You will note I did account for the emperor gift thing. In fact I suggested the red be a completely separate pull for all but auric maelsrom (where there is a chance your normal gift becomes a red in addition to your chance at the additional pull). Crafting an item that is just better and reduces the need for crafting is just not going to happen so I didn’t even suggest it.
The chances I noted are not final or anything, you could put an incredibly low chance so it is just like “hey I got this cool new item” instead of something that is inevitable. I would say most players are playing normal malice and heresy at the moment so really their chances at red would only be 10% at best playing a maelstrom heresy.
They have no plans to let us re-roll the 5 stats so an item that just starts with better stats (still capped to 380 base so it just has a narrow range of 350-380). So there will always be that perfect 380 distribution to chase.
Also curios would be red too and they could weight it to be more likely to give a curio as opposed to a weapon since those do not inherently make the player more powerful (just harder to kill).
In Vermintide 2 when red weapons were introduced players often got exactly what they wanted within 50 or so hours of play and STILL played for hundreds of hours after, some are still playing thusands of hours later. “Invalidating” a crafting system should not be looked at as an inherently bad thing for a game’s lifespawn, after all in this case players may still swap around perks and blessings which will still use resources. With is fancy red weapon (I think option 2 is the most likely or possibly option 3) you may get it and then use it on multiple builds and have to swap around stuff if it doesn’t fit the build in its configuration.
Aurics, much as cataclysm in Vermintide 2, are mainly made for challenge. They arent made for the casual player, thus its an extremely bad idea to give these challenges a high chance for a significant reward like reds. It just brings unneeded problems. If even, the highest chance should be on regular damnation with secondary objectives.
Still, emperors gift is a terrible idea for loot and if reds become only available through that, the people will riot immediately. You get one drop for like 25-35 minutes, that is terrible for farming a whole weapon tier that most likely will have random stats again. Emperors gift would need to be increased drastically at that point.
I am not sure what you are talking about in regard to Vermintide 2, i assume you have played it like after Chaos Wastes came out, because not only did the game start with red weapons, it was an absolute nightmare to get them when the game released. There was no red crafting, monster didnt drop any lucky dice and let me tell you about either getting swamped with red trinkets or the same red weapon ten times in a row. Many people needed more than 1k hours to even get a complete set of red weapons. That was our endgame.
But it doesnt matter, because the same system cant be used in Darktide, because Darktides system doesnt focus on getting loot after a run anymore, but getting resources to buy and craft stuff, so reds have to be adapted to it.
My brother in Sigmar that is simply wrong.
I have roughly 700 hours in Vermintide 2 and got 80% of all careers fully equipped with reds long before wastes and red dust.
All you had to do was play legend games. The quota was roughly one red every 7-10 emperor’s chests.
Which is more than fair. Rewarding the highest difficulties is a proper motivation to git gud.
you’re proving his point, 80% is no where near complete, and we couldn’t craft, and since there’s no dublicate protection in place…
i infact know a couple, who were unlucky enough to not have a complete set of reds after 1k hours.
i myself got my last red wich was the executioner, at 970 ish hours
You are far too negative and I request you stop posting. You have made your position clear and it is also clear you are so negative that it is impossible to persuade you that you are objectively wrong. Your arguments are all assumptions that players won’t like it. But that is a moot point because no matter what some players are not going to like things.
When I say added red I mean when they made it viable to farm them. Now, I only have like 500 hours on VT2 but 200 of that is after the first DLC expansion dropped which was when I started.
You say it can’t but that is only because it currently does not. It would be trivial to code a second reward for completion.
If you make things more rewarding players will have more incentive to get better at the game so they can clear it faster. Right now there is no real incentive for the players dragging everyone down to get any better because who really cares about a loss, you were not getting anything meaningful from a win anyway.
I am going to ask that is you only want to come in here with a negative attitude and not provide any meaningful discussion that you save yourself the time and don’t reply.
I don’t care about your negative thoughts for something that doesn’t exist. That isn’t the point of this discussion. The point is to figure out what reds would look like in this game (and I do think they belong in the game in some form).
When I said “thoughts?” I mean thoughts on what I was suggesting. If you think what I suggested is not a good idea, that is fine, what is your suggestion for an alternative. Constructive criticism, not “whaaaaa I hate it and I never want anyone to have something just because I don’t like it” because that is what theppekausen sounds like when all they do is say negative things and offer no alternatives. That isn’t how we craft an idea that could really change long-term gearing for the better.
this sounds just horrible, “beep boop non compliance detected, silencing protocol initiated”
he wrote genuine constructive criticism, its not that deep…
That is precisely my point in locking them behind a reward drop chance, because we KNOW it won’t break the game since people have put hundreds of hours into VT2 and some still don’t have full red for every character.
wich is a bad thing, should take 500h absolute max to have everything gameplay relevant unlocked as far as im concerned anything that artificially gate keeps players is a trash mechanic
No I’m not. I never stated how many of those 700 hours were spent after wastes and red dust upgrading. It was roughly at the half point I took a break until wastes released. I also believe that fully equipping 12 of 15 classes with a full set of red weapons after 300-400 hours is more than fair.
I merely took gripes in his 1k hour statement. My point is that higher difficulties used to be at least somewhat rewarding. With the current system it’s a goddamn waste either way. Just last night I wasted 2 mil dockets and 14k plasteel and failed to craft the gun I wanted.
That’s roughly 20-25 runs of plasteel for a trash bin collection. Compared to a red every 8 Missions that was perfect… Can’t believe I miss the old system
Yeah, that was my thoughts with the percent chances I suggested. 3-4 runs of the hardest difficulty to get a red is pretty damn good and the lower difficulties I suggested about double the rate VT2 was dropping them (which is still low but that is how it should be).
It wasn’t perfect, but it was a hell of a lot more rewarding than this loop.