Recon lasguns need a boost, but were ignored in latest patch

I noticed in the recent patch (1.0.30, blessings of the omnissiah) that among the plethora of positive weapon balance changes, there was absolutely nothing for the recon lasguns. Given that the guns have been in a subpar state since the massive infernus nerfs, and then were subsequently ignored in a large scale balance patch, I decided to make a post to try and get that addressed.

What happened to infernus?

For those who weren’t playing at the time, infernus was changed from a potentially infinite stacking DOT to one that is hard capped at either 6 or 9 stacks depending on your blessing tier. While a necessary change to keep from trivializing hardier targets (including bosses), the stabilization of the overwhelming power of pre-nerf infernus exposed the recons as being fairly weak in its absence.

Wouldn’t this affect other guns that could roll infernus too?

Recons are the pre-eminent infernus users, and the most clearly reliant on it due to their power without it. Having a high fire rate and low damage per shot allows you to stack it quickly and have it do noticeable damage before the target dies.

Low fire rate/high damage guns like the infantry lasguns (notably xii) and helbores are, for obvious reasons, substantially less effective users due to targets either dying in 1-2 shots, often not even applying stacks at all. These guns were clearly not balanced around relying on infernus, to the point where it’s widely considered a waste of a blessing slot on them.

What’s wrong with recons specifically?

-Recons suffer from comparatively high ttk (low dps) and also high ammo inefficiency (low damage per shot relative to total ammo). Unfortunately this a common issue with low damage/high fire rate guns and variants, and not limited to recons.

-That means not only do you take longer to kill things compared to popular alternatives (XII, agri braced, agri IAG, the newly popular vraks III), you also need to take considerably more ammo pickups from your team to do it.

-This leads to the weapons having a steep fall off in effectiveness in higher (heresy+) difficulties, most notably in damnation. Having to hoover all the ammo from your team in damnation to do your job properly isn’t a good time. If someone else is running another ammo hungry gun, now you both have a problem.

-Infernus is necessary on recons to soften this fall off and make them “competitive” with other options, but doesn’t remove it entirely, and the guns are still weaker than their meta alternatives even with t4 infernus and a 5% crit perk to support it.

-Requiring a weapon to give up a blessing/perk slot just to make up for how weak it is baseline is poor balancing. Especially if that blessing is extremely hard to get, as infernus is now (it was stealth nerfed to basically have no chance of appearing in the normal shop months ago). You could make some argument for it if the blessing is just so good that the gun is superbly amazing with it, but that’s not the case here.

But I used a recon and it felt fine!

It’s functional, just very underwhelming by comparison to strong alternatives. You won’t have any problem using them up to malice, but after that a fall off is quite noticeable. If you’re using it and felt impressed with it in higher difficulties, then I invite you to use a comparably rolled version of any of the other guns I mentioned previously. You will be blown away by the difference in killing power.

Suggestions for improvements:

-A simple increase in damage per shot would help alleviate both the ttk and ammo inefficiency issues.

-Addition of certain blessings to the recon pool (Crucian roulette, blaze away perhaps?) to make the lasgun bullet hose fantasy more supported.

-Make it so that infernus stacks will “detonate” once the total remaining damage of the burn exceeds a targets remaining health, dealing the damage instantly and executing the target. Solves the problem of infernus having a ton of wasted damage potential and improves ammo economy by removing the need to continuously shoot at it when it would have died to the burn anyway. No longer incentivizes leaving burning enemies alive (and attacking) for ammo efficiency.

-Adjust the infernus blessing to be more worth the investment/effort it takes to get if it’s really so necessary to have the gun be so reliant on it.

And more general suggestions that would also benefit a large swathe of other guns:

-Adjustments to deadshot that lets it better support high fire rate guns (works even at zero stamina? Sitting at zero stam constantly is already a big risk.) without needing to forfeit strong talents (unwavering focus, camo expert) to take a significantly less useful one (duck and dive) and then be forced to have the goofiest and most unenjoyable playstyle ever (constantly dodging back and forth while firing to maintain stamina while also making it harder to aim).

-Adjustment of crit strings to not be salvo based, therefore removing the incentive to burst fire your bullet hoses instead of full autoing them as the Emperor intended. For more info on crit strings and hidden crit mechanics, see this: Steam Community :: Guide :: Weapon Perks, Blessings and All-You-Need-To-Know

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It’s absolutely perplexing that accatrans were absent from the last balance pass. Especially considering all the recent buffs to the kickback and pistols, i’m confident in my claim that accatran has become the worst pattern in the entire game period. They need severe numbers changes across the board, all damages values need to be increased. I also find it baffling that ripper guns got two extra mags (an entire 50% boost), AND blaze away became nuts, when they already have bolter level dps on non-carapace. In that case, recons need 20 extra mags just for consistency’s sake. I wouldn’t suggest buffing infernus, it’s already too blessing rng reliant.

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This is entirely anecdotal but here’s a recon lasgun in action. Damnation 5 Hunting Grounds. Guv played well, very well, they stayed close to the team (I mean look at that coherency score) were proactive in getting pickups and pinging, were always head on a swivel when it came to specials, and barely even took damage, while landing mostly headshots. And just, look at how awful their damage is. They’re comically bad weapons, and the arbitrary cap at Infernus is just another kneecap of an already terrible weapon.

I don’t understand the cap. It does no damage, a 9 strength dot isn’t even as good as a single recon las shot and the recon las shot does 50 damage to unarmored enemies. It’s bafflingly bad, if you made Infernus uncapped it would still be worse than basically every other gun in the game but at least it might do some ok boss chip or something. As it stands now, Recon Lasgun is hands down the worst set of weapons in the game, with revolver and shotgun earning second and third worst respectively. If you doubled Recon Las damage I think they would still be worse than a Kantrel XII, Bolter, Plasma, Agrapinaa XIII, Laspistol, Shredder, or any Headhunter, so I don’t see any real issues with that especially since it’s the only gun in the game that just flat does 0 damage to carapace. It needs massive buffs.

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Agreed, at a minimum they should get anywhere from a 5 to 10% dmg increase. Also, tritium sights damn it, all iron sight weapons desperately need em currently.

This is a really well written, detailed explanation of the buffs the weapon could use to be viable at higher difficulties. I hope they take a look at it. Nice job.

Typically, I love the recon lasgun and never use it cause… it is not balanced and a bad weapon in damnation difficulty.
Few weapons need badly a buff. Revolver and recon lasgun are two of them.

Shotguns are really great weapons.
Sure it lacks a little increase of ammos reserve, but the weapons themselves are balanced.

Lawbringer maybe, but the new ones are fine in the ammo department if you don’t go spamming it. They are pretty good too.

Yes I agree on everything.

I use the mkVId with my psyker. With kinectic flayer feat it’s pretty cool, the 10% brainburst chance on hit is almost guaranteed on a salvo due to it’s fast firing speed. I found the gun a bit too underwhelming on veteran though, that’s why I play it on psyker instead
They are not (especially the mkVId) the worst weapons in the game at all. I “recon” it could use a bit more dmg on maniac armor type :+1:

Thread’s so old they got black and white photos of it in the history books

And fs still hasn’t touched the recon las

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hello fatshark???

@FatsharkCatfish

They should give you like 20x the reserves if the gimmick is you mag-dumping for 1 kill like starship troopers.

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Hear me out… What if they just nerf all the rest of the lasguns? Problem solved, everything is balanced!

*/s

Weapon Tweaks:

Recon lasguns

  • Bump baseline damage range by 20%-ish (raw input min-max from 30-60 to 40-70, so stronger bump on lower rolled damage ranges).

Recon got buffed

But is it enough?

Still bad on veteran imho, but I was performing really good on my kinetic flayer psyker with it and an illisi FS, it’ll be even better now :smiley:
Big winner of this patch is the revolver

I’ll have to test some more tomorrow but from doing one run with each recon mark on damnation I feel like only the slowest rate of fire one seemed to be decent enough for damnation. But I still felt like a liability to my team using all is them, and was forced to switch to melee a lot of the time because enemies didn’t die fast enough and swarmed me.
And this is with a god rolled mid and high rof. The lowest rof only uses full dmg modifiers but without perks or blessings.

However I noticed something strange when testing them in the meat grinder.
The mid and high rate of fire ones have headhunter/infernus blessing on them and both of them were making ludicrous amounts of critical headshots. Like 19 out of 20 headshots were crits.
That was very strange.
The other weird part were that they were doing less dmg on crits than regular headshots.
Regular were 126ish and crits were 64.
So something weird was going on. I am wondering if it is simply a display error, as the enemy is getting so many hits it registers them incorrectly. Fast hits usually stack but here it simply just ticked like a dot. So maybe a strange interaction with infernus proccing like mad? Idk.

I’ll test more tomorrow. Probably missing something.

after testing, it seems like Crits are registering 3 times for every crit and counting as single hits rather than stacking, making it seem like they do less dmg. I’m not sure if this is intentional or a visual bug since it only happens on full auto and not on single shots.

when comparing ttk with single shotting and full auto I was still killing targets with the same amount of ammo used. So I’m leaning towards a visual bug. Since if it wasn’t just a visual bug I should’ve been killing targets a lot quicker on full auto with so many more crits registering, it should’ve added up towards hundreds of extra damage and made me use a lot less ammo.

I’d say the Recon’s still needs about a 25% dmg boost to be viable for damnation. Since using it with Veterans Volley Fire it feels just right and pretty great. This one adds +50% ranged damage, which might be a bit too much to have all the time, since it’ll turn it into a beast if you than add Volley Fire to a buff like that.
So adding 25% to the top end damage potential to Recon should make it useful for damnation. I’d say the low end is just fine at the moment.
possibly increase stagger on Maniacs a tad.

Nope, not even close. This patch did nothing to remedy the disparity between the versions, and so the 2 and 7a still notably underperform dps wise. 6d is slightly less (but still very) ammo inefficient, although at least it has more passing raw dps numbers. Not enough to break it into being good for high difficulty, especially given the lines numerical weakness towards both unyielding AND maniac enemies.

Prepatch dps numbers:

2 586-625- dps close | 605.5 average
2 399-415- dps long | 407 average
Average across all ranges | 506.25

7a 695-735- dps close | 715 average
7a 480-520- dps long | 500 average
Average across all ranges | 607.5

6d 639-686- dps close | 662.5 average
6d 781-878- dps long | 829.5 average
Average across all ranges | 746

Post patch numbers after initial retesting:

Mk2 670-720 dps close | 695~ average
Mk2 435-535 dps long | 485~ average
Average across all ranges | 590~

Mk7a 782-835 dps close | 808.5~ average
Mk7a 520-595 dps long | 557.5~ average
Average across all ranges | 683~

Mk6d 742-805 dps close | 773.5~ average
Mk6d 806-1004 dps long | 905~ average
Average across all ranges | 839.25~

I’ll include both my pre and post patch patch recon rundowns attached to this post for anyone curious.

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