Ranged vs melee thoughts

unless you were playing sienna, then you wave cleared with fire…

IF you have talents AND certain gear stats\traits AND certain staves. Goinf through all these hoops should be rewarded imho

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Do you REALLY need all that ? Cause i dont think sooo : - )

I was just in a game with dwarf ironbreaker, elf and pyro, me playing as witch hunter.

Elf and pyro each got about 700 kills each with +7000k damage done
Me and the dwarf didnt even get to 100 kills each, because everything died before we could get into melee range.
Something seems off. Some classes definitely need to get buffed and melee needs some special attention.

I am a VT noob. I never played VT1. I started this game on Kruber in Beta, then switched to Sienna when it went Live. Until I got the “-Overcharge on Crit” trait on an orange staff plus lvl 5 (-10% Overcharge generated) plus lvl 15 (less Overcharge when getting to higher levels of Overcharge) I could NOT spam Bolt or Beam staff all the time. No way. You really need the trait and those talents to become a constant machine gun.

The way I understand the teamplay in this game is: melee protects the ranged. That’s their job. Ranged is there for clearing enemies from far away, so the group does not get in bad situations. That is just the games design. You seem to want to play DPS and not Tank. If you are melee focused as Handmaiden or something then you should protect your Ranged against threats from their flanks.

If you want to play to just smash hordes without thinking - go play Serious Sam I guess. :slight_smile:

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yeah rnged is a little out of control right now , sienna’s OC isnt doing what it should , one career needs some pretty hard nerfing the other 2 some buffing. bardins drakefire equipment is just going to be hard to balance and is over tuned right now.

see a lot of elf and krubers just not really having to watch ammo

hand to hand weapons and classes i think are actually fine , some issues of minor balance or kits not quite working right but generally i feel ranged is too easy and strong not hand to hand being weak.

Yeah no. If melee were all supposed to tank then there would be no point in having different melee classes. Foot Knight and Ironbreaker are tanks, the rest arent.
If that was the case then why would range need melee weapons.

VT1 was a very different game, basically you´d only ever use ranged weapons on specials and bosses or massive clusters of enemies.

But even then there was a whole lot of melee combat going on.

My issue with the current game is that everything dies at proverbial miles away, and hordes drop dead without anyone ever having to go into a melee.

Elf handmaiden is basically a tank/off tank class, you have high stamina and high stamina regen with the ability to move though enemies pretty easily…but in the game i played i was only ever standing on the sidelines watching the Sienna and Bardin basically 2 man the entire map despite the supposedly high difficulty, even bounty saltzpyre didn’t really get much done as he couldn’t get a good aim on anything through the constant fire curtains.

Me and salty ended with like 150 kills each, Sienna and Bardin had several hundred each, i think it was at least 400+.

They didnt even need help to almost instakill specials and stormvermin patrols either, only time me and salty got really involved was on a boss, then we went back to just watching the scenery.

How fun is a team game were 2 people can easily manage the work of 4?

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In V1 I also used trueflight or hagbane for hordes on Elf…was fun with split shot and return ammo :smiley:

also Saltys BoP as waveclearer had been awesome then, bulletpierce and return ammo… sometimes clearde whole waves on Cata…

so V1 also had the Option to stay ranged.
I play slayer in my main Group with a sienna, elf and krub…most times i use the jump and let them handle the few i jumped over, get back and then jump again but since we use TeamSpeak it miht be a huge difference to random Groups. But we Keep switching so sienna can Charge up her Flames or cool down and the others snipe for Spezials.

like Horde inc, range first down, as soon as Horde gets Close i jump in front they handle those Close up and get Specials, i fall back and the whole Thing repeats…yesterday we startet on leg and it works awesome.

Right but even then Sienna would pull her sword out more. I almost never see a Sienna pull their melee out in V2.

Orly? Let Sienna and dwarf play togther just the two of them, no bots, no other players, and watch them die in minutes.

if they are playing as a mage build(pyro) there shouldn’t be any need to pull out a sword when you have all the talents, and farmed for items with specific traits and stats. yOu pull it out only to block and push if needed.

If you want to see Sienna meleeing then people should start playing Unchained more. Oh wait… she’s got some serious issues they still haven’t fixed…

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[quote=“Semela, post:31, topic:18792, full:true”]

Orly? Let Sienna and dwarf play togther just the two of them, no bots, no other players, and watch them die in minutes.

I am completely serious.

The only time Bardin and Sienna needed any kind of help was on a boss, for the remaining time me and salty were just cheerleaders on the side who picked off occasional stragglers and some small groups of flankers.

But at times we didn’t even manage to finish our small groups off before those 2 were done with entire horde waves and ready to come finish up our work too.

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I think people are forgetting that the core gameplay of Vermintide is to basically hack away at Skaven. With a pyromancer Sienna and IB Bardin there is literally none of that outside of a few ambient rats from time to time. And yes this is my experience playing on Legend, it makes no difference.

Flamethrower and several Sienna staves are just too strong at clearing hordes. It makes the game unfun for the other half of the group who are relegated to watching by the sideline. Furthermore, it cheapens the experience by making everything easier. Being able to stand toe to toe with a horde in VT1 was essential in order to do Cataclysm or higher. In this game that skill is not needed.

This is something that worries me a lot about the future of VT2 actually. Implementing flamethrower type weapons was a fundamental design flaw by Fatshark. They are obviously not going to remove them. The question is can they nerf them into oblivion and deal with the backlash from people who used them at crutches or will they let them stay as is and risk alienating a large part of the player base who would prefer to actually play the game rather than watch two other players play it.

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They could give the flamethrowers good power but severely limit the uptime in exchange, instead of being a constant power with little downtime.

It would allow them to be a good “anti horde” ace without making them a thing that gets used for anything that gets spotted.

Kerillian, despite all her problems, actually has a good balance between her bows.

Longbow, fires rather slowly and you cant move and aim at the same time, but its shots deal a great deal of damage and even quickshots can pierce up to 4 slaverats or more, they also pierce light armor.

It has a zoom on the charged shot and appropriately its headshot damage is massive and even the normal charged shot damage is high.

Shortbow, can fire quickly and while moving allowing you to stay mobile, light attack can pierce 2 clanrats and charged can pierce light armor and up to 4 slaverats worth. Headshot damage is about 35-40% of longbow-

Hagbane, can fire quickly and while moving, does not pierce armor and deals very little direct damage, but the poison can affect a small area around impact and is greatly useful against hordes.

But that hagbane was repeatedly nerfed in a number of ways for being “too good” against hordes, other players complained that Kerillian was hogging all the action by ending any exiting fights before they could start.

So it had it’s ammo cut, its zoom removed, damage lowered, lost armor pen, lost shield pen and it also lost effectiveness on chaos warriors.

It was justified as “letting others play too” or something like that…but now we have Bardin and Sienna often doing the exact same thing <.<

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you DO know that the flamethrowers already received a big nerf in that they have to charge up and only fire for a certain amount of time before needing to charge and fire again right? They were way more OP in the closed test where they just spewed fire on command. At this point they probably just need some minor tweaks really… either to damage or to the rate at which they heat up.

Closed test they were bugged so that they can fire the full charge without charging up. The devs simply fixed it for release. IMO flamethrowers need to either have increased heat gen or a non-stacking damage so you won’t get a combined duo flamethrowers roasting literally everything in the path. Stacking AOE damage is exactly how you wipe massive chunks of a horde and is probably the reason why duo flamethrowers can wipe a horde coming in from one side safely.

seen this types of threads a thousand times over, but never encountered it in ANY of my games as kruber/dorf/elf playing as melee heavy builds.

if the sienna or dorf is dominating in ranged clearing, it is simply because your party is allowing them to blast away at things before they get to you. when a horde comes, most of the time they spawn out of sight, but you can hear them coming a mile off. do you wait for them to come, letting your sienna or dorf do all the blasting at a chokepoint? or do you eagerly rush to clear them out? are you turning corners and one bumping off stormvermin the moment you meet them or pulling back to let ranged help burn them down?

playstyle matters A LOT in these circumstances. it’s perfectly fine to let ranged take threats down at a distance while you protect them, it’s easy and you beat the level fine. but don’t complain because you’re not pushing the limits of what melee can do - that’s just not acceptable in my view. sienna and ranged drakefires are NOT able to one shot stormvermin consistently every 5 seconds, and they can’t deal with large spread apart groups fast, but melee can pretty much mow them down in an open field with wide sweeping strikes or precise head swings.

let me give you an example.
halls of convocation / troll mine level:

  • you turn a corner. you encounter a stormvermin or chaos warrior
  • sienna unleashes her flame skull and kills it
  • you turn another corner with another big dude
  • what can sienna or dorf do? elf/kruber/dorf kills it in 2 seconds
  • melee pushes forward, every corner they swing they get kills, sienna struggles to catch up
  • horde comes, melee rushes to greet it, sienna can’t friendly fire with them blocking, she has to find a good angle to sear them
  • kruber and dorf is going wild with 2h hammer swings taking out 5 rats per swing
  • elf shoots one arrow into 10 rats with hagbane and they all die from a distance

etc etc etc.

the point i am trying to make is that if sienna/dorf is pulling the heavyweighting, the party is LETTING them do it. the nature of their kits do not enable them to be the most effective in all combat scenarios, only some.

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Good luck with that kind of thinking on champion difficulty. :wink: On champion even a pyromancer has to use melee lots of times although the class doesn’t have any talents to support this playstyle.

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u are aware that he is speaking about legend…thats the one HARDER than Champ?!

just wanted to make sure

Its not any better on legend, the safest and easiest tactic I have found is letting the ranged do all the work and just sit back and defend them if anything gets close.

Same killing power as melee but without all the risk.

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