Ranged vs melee thoughts

Right now, I feel like ranged is a little bit too strong, and too good to pass for any party that wants to have a smooth run. I main IB Drakeguns and usually play with a Bolt Sienna friend. We can melt through most hordes, specials and most elites before they even engage. These two classes have virtually INFINITE ammo, making them great sustain tools. If Sienna goes heat reduction when criting, she can literally keep the left click without even caring about overheat. :joy: In my case, I can fire non-stop by venting my temporary health.

Here’s a link with scoreboards during 1.0.8b when playing with my friend to show that this combo may be overtuned.

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Played earlier today with Waystalker, PYro Beamstaff, Bounty Hunter and Huntsman. I played Kruber and didn’t have to worry too much about swapping from longbow to Melee as nothing got close enough to wallop me. Troll got melted in a laughable fashion.

In some cases a special got hit by volleybow, longbow, pyro and elf arrow before it hit the floor. :slight_smile: Ranged-meta is still broken in a melee focused game.

Personally, it’s the panic-buttons and infinite “ammo” that make me sigh. Homing Fireball and Homing Arrows need a complete rethink as Ults, and drakepistols, volleybow and some of siennas heat-reduce-on-crit still needs some deep thought to fix.

If you fixed that, and made all chars into melee with a little ranged, you’d need to rebalance all careers and all weapons, and give sienna in particular a wide new range of weapons viable for melee. She certainly couldnt still have the slowdown for melee and dodge if she was routinely forced into melee.

agree, for how powerful these things are they need a longer cooldown. Alternately making them only hit one target (but with more reliable targeting) would also be a good change.

I haven’t played pyromancer, but I play waystalker a lot, and Trueflight Volley is just way too easy to spam to either delete a special or thin out a ridiculous amount of trash enemies.

Sienna wouldn’t need to be forced into melee and I’m not suggesting completely doing something new for her Pyro Ult, but there should be some degree of skill involved in using it. In VT1 you had to highlight the target enemy you wanted to target (with trueflight bow) and although it could still delete specials, it couldn’t delete lots of them and took some time to line-up and aim. It was also a waste of ammo to just pummel a horde with trueflight arrows as it had the lowest ammo.

I’m suggesting rewarding skillbased play. I really do not begrudge a Huntsman Kruber who gets the highest headshots and most elite kills when I know it requires skill to do it. It gives me a real sense of burning frustration when a Pyro has tons more damage, tons more headshot kills and lots of elite/special kills for simply pressing F whenever they feel like it.

As a side note, does anyone know the effective range and damage of Salty’s rapier pistol? It doesn’t have ammo so could be open to abuse but is it actually any good?

That can be done pretty easily without no rebalance.

But even a rebalance would be pretty easy. All that needs to be nerfed is ammo regeneration, possibly to 0, and heat ventilation - then players will have to melee no matter what.

My opinion:
I think it adds much diversity to the game to have some ranged focused carriers.
The Problem appears when we have to many ranged focused carriers in one match.
Right now i just leave when that happens and it works fine for me.
I don’t think that it is a problem that a waystalker mainly uses its bow or the witch her staff.

I still think that ranged needs a bit balancing.
For example no temporary hp on ranged kills.
Less damage with ranged weapons on bosses and more with melee. (Especially with slow weapons.)

I too am sick of being spam-cannoned in the back by Bardin when I try to melee. It’s not the damage that makes it annoying, it’s the flashing red screen and its DoT which makes you think you’re taking damage from an enemy when you’re not which leads to “Where am I getting hit from?” and spinning around all over the place.

Sometimes I just go “meh” and stand at the back and let the ranged characters get their green circles.

The thing that sucks most is that some characters are “shoot everything in sight with no concern for ammo” and some are “specials and headshots (on enemies whose heads are waving around all over the place) only or you run out of ammo in 30 seconds” which leads to “stand at the back and do nothing so you don’t get spam-cannoned”.

It’s not a melee vs. ranged thing. It’s a “certain OP weapons, talents, and traits” vs. melee thing.

You think ranged is so much powerful in this game?

Try playing it with some other weapon than you normally do. Try it without the usual ammo-replenishing traits and options you use. Try it without the one-button ammo gain talents, and try it without the “my ammo is unlimited” weapon, and see just how much ranged can really put up constant firepower as they can do when using the (obvious) choice of careers and weapons.

After all this time, people have gotten so much accustomed to those things that are basically OP, easy-mode options/settings, that many people just take for granted those things as the norm, and in comparison complain about all the other weapons, talents, settings are gimped or underwhelming.

In reality, it’s the opposite. The weapons and settings, talents some people view as weak or ‘gimped’, is actually the norm. Under those terms, the balance between melee and ranged are quite comparable and compliments each other very well.

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This is the most coherent post I’ve read concerning ranged/melee.

I play Kruber huntsman without using Halberd simply so it’s not easy mode. I play Sienna Unchained with Fireball staff just so I don’t have to play with panic-button pyro.

When these OP weapons or talents do get fixed, the backlash from the people who have always used volleybow BH (and also Beam staff, trueflight etc) is going to be bigger than the monumental amount of whining about green dust.

Hm, not sure i really agree.

For fatshark did decide to add in ranged specialized classes.

They generally have a few traits in common, superior ammo capacity, ammo regen and less falloff damage.

And their talent builds tend to be split towards either further enhancing their ranged capability, or giving small enhancements to their melee like stamina regen.

But those enhancements are nowhere near enough, a single slaverat can instantly eat 30-40% of your health in a melee so you have to avoid it as much as possible to avoid making mistakes that result in a shortage of healing supplies.

And while it seems like Sienna and Bardin still very much have unlimited ammo and kerillians shortbow the same doesnt seem to apply to the rest of their weapons.

I myself play with hagbane on kerillian, i have to be hella careful with ammo management for i´ll run dry very quickly if not.

I´ve seen bounty saltz actually run out of ammo completely several times, and huntsman kruber has to line up his shorts nicely to keep the ammo up.

Kerillians ammo regen? Her 25 talent on hagbane restores 5 shots on a …35-45 something seconds cooldown…and her ammo regen is 1 shot every …5-7 seconds?

I dont know about others but i end up in melee, a lot…for i basically only shoot bigger clustered groups, stormvermin, specials and bosses.

Anything else and i try to save up on ammo for the next big occasion.

So, i have a fair feeling for melee i think, and as a matter of fact i usually end up with a 6/10 parts ranged or even a 5/10 parts ranged to total kills with the rest being melee/bombs.

But, this doesnt mean melee doesnt have its own share of issue´s.

Phantom swings and pushes are still a thing, bigger enemies doing instant guardbreaks still happens and hyper density is still a question big as ever.

Ranged has none of those, it still frequently happens that a group of 4 mixed types of ranged can easily breeze through a map as long as they are careful with their positioning…i have actually farmed skittergate like this just because the map is so optimal for it.

So sure, i´d like to have some ranged things nerfed…but more than that i still really want melee cleaving,phantom attacks, anti armor,blocking and the bugs to be buffed/fixed for melee can never be a thing with those still around

Well that and boss turn animation attacks, so easily to die instantly because a supposedly charged heavy boss attack has its windup cut by half or more because it´s obscured by the turning.

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If you’re playing as BH, use the volley bow and help kill hordes/elites. I regularly top elite kills and compete for total kills/damage.

That being said, melee is a lot weaker than ranged at the moment. And this is proven by playing a few maps of ‘melee only’. Bosses take forever to die, and specials turn into a fun challenge.

Melee really needs to be buffed across the board.

Agree with most of what you said, except for nerfing ranged. I would rather see them buff melee a bit. Increase cleave, give melee more damage mitigation, anything really. Or make bosses less of a game of ping pong. Ranged sit back and damage, while melee get two swings in before getting launched off the map.

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Ranged needs regen nerf at least, but melee definitely needs more buffs. At least stacking fix, because stacking creates situations you can not react to. You can get hit by an enemy that you neither see nor can hit, and that’s the worst most unfair thing about melee now.

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The problem with nerfing ammo (I think that’s what you meant by regen) is, most ranged are really squishy and aren’t meant to be really effective in melee range. If you limit ammo more than it already is with most classes, you force them into poor positioning. That’s why I suggested buffing melee. And yes, please fix stacking hordes/ghost hits.

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Which has been known since first closed test, but FS neither cared nor acknowledged that. They’re too busy making DLC hats and nerfing whatever broken bullshit j_sat uses to upload his next EPIC TRUE SOLO LEVEL 1 LEGEND RUN SIENNA video.

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Champion is super easy with any class combination whether you are using melee or ranged at max HP. Legend is a big jump in difficulty from Champion and balancing the game around lower difficulties would be terrible for the end game experience. If Champion has gotten too easy for you maybe move up to Legend. I definitely think that some of the melee weapons could use some help (Mace+Shield, 2HS, etc) but continuously nerfing ranged based on gameplay experience in lower difficulties doesn’t make any sense.

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Pretty much this ^

Champion is a joke.

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Nobody is talking about full HP runs as a standard. In any serious VT2 community discussion the premise is almost exclusively a 2-Grim/3-Tome run, and therefore difficulty level is irrelevant to the issue at hand. The term “easymode” refers to the discrepancies between MOST of the weapons, talents, traits the game offers, which can be considered balanced, and the SMALL NUMBER of very specific weapons, talents, and traits that are almost exclusively popular.

Just as a single example; Siennas using Conflag, Bolt, Flame, Fireball staves don’t get to just laser-pointer their attacks as if they’re doing a Powerpoint presentation on stage, and they certainly don’t get to dish out attacks ad infinitum without worries of overheating. All of them require a certain degree of skill to properly target and launch, have different effective range limitations, and also require clever heat management.

Beam staff requires none of those. It is LITERALLY “easy-mode” in every aspect possible, and despite not being very high in damage theoretically, the instant aim-correction and hit-scan nature makes its time-on-target massively higher than any other weapon in the game.

These series of facts is undeniable, and being the sole irregularity in comparison to the majority of weapons in existence, it makes them by definition overpowered.

As mentioned, try gather up a team NOT using any of such similarly overpowered weapons, talents, traits in use and then see how they perform in Champ/Legend 2G/3T runs. People accustomed to above mentioned OP conveniences will immediately feel a surge in general difficulty and will often meet situations that usually do not turn up in their “normal” games.

That feeling of increased difficulty, the frustration of not being able to laser-pointer-click every single enemy in screen, or not being able to just point your flaming “cursor” to the boss head and getting headshots after headshots – that is the NORMAL difficulty which most of the weapons, traits, talents are at.

It’s at that point where the “ranged is too powerful” misconception comes in.

In comparison, does anyone think RV Bardin is OP in terms of ranged combat? Can the RV whittle down massive number of mobs on screen non-stop at speeds like WS Kerillians or PM Siennas? Can he land pot-shots like HM Kruber or BH Saltz? Can he replenish something like 10~15 ammo per single pop of his smokebomb? Does he get a guaranteed crit skill to exploit the scrounger trait for +2 ammo everytime he shoots? No, of not.

Good RV Bardins can do very admirable level of ranged combat, but he doesn’t have the luxury of easy-mode aiming, nor abnormally strong pot-shots, nor infinite supply of ammo. He’s got limited number of shots which must be used carefully, because the 1~2 ammo resupply from his talent isn’t going to just dump ammo like WS Kerillian can. THIS is the normal limitations of a ranged class. Nobody thinkgs RV Bardin’s ranged combat is simply so overpowering as to trivialize melee combat.

I’m not saying every other ranged classes need to face all of those limitations like the RV Bardin faces, but I am saying that there are far too little limitations in terms of balance when certain weapons, traits, talents are used in combination. There’s always that specific career, weapon, property and trait, talent combination that is strongly recommended when new players ask about how to play a Sienna, Kerillian, or Saltz. This tendency is so much prevalent over other possible weapons/build choices, that some people even DEMAND their Siennas, Kerillians, Saltz use those settings, or sometimes go even further as to IMMEDIATELY KICK PEOPLE OFF THE TEAM when different settings are used.

Those settings, are what’s behind ranged trivializing melee.

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Max HP as in heropower, presumably. Not no grims.

As mentioned, try gather up a team NOT using any of such similarly overpowered weapons, talents, traits in use and then see how they perform in Champ/Legend 2G/3T runs. People accustomed to above mentioned OP conveniences will immediately feel a surge in general difficulty and will often meet situations that usually do not turn up in their “normal” games.

On 1.0.8 Legend, plenty people actually run the less-meta setups. I see more crossbow salts than i do repeater ones, for example. Plenty fireball/conflag/bolt siennas too (personally not a fan of the beam outside of boss DPS). Although i have yet to see anyone use the flame, for obvious reasons.

Can he land pot-shots like HM Kruber or BH Saltz?

Not sure how he would not, his handgun is identical to krubers and certainly capable of pot-shots.

Can he replenish something like 10~15 ammo per single pop of his smokebomb? Does he get a guaranteed crit skill to exploit the scrounger trait for +2 ammo everytime he shoots? No, of not.

On 1.0.8, yes he does. The bomb makes you autocrit.

He’s got limited number of shots which must be used carefully, because the 1~2 ammo resupply from his talent isn’t going to just dump ammo like WS Kerillian can.

Like all the other chars, RV requires ammo talents and traits to really sustain himself (without the ammo regen trait kerillian has 0 sustain), however, with those he does quite well for himself.

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