Ranged vs melee thoughts

risk + reward. it’s a valid tactic. definitely safer, definitely easier. but slower.

a skilled melee stack with ranged support will be a LOT faster. riskier, but faster. skill rewarded with speed.

“Everything died before we could get into melee range” “Buff melee”.

Sorry but I can’t see how giving buff to melee characters could fix the issue.

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I exclusively play on Legend unless I am carrying my friends on Champion, but ok.

Aside from Sienna, balancing shouldn’t be that hard.
Less ammo. That’s the answer.
It felt pretty balanced in VT1, and with weapons having roughly half the ammo they had in the first game it should be even more so. Except there are too many ways to have infinite ammo, and that turns the game into a shooter.
It should be pretty easy to see that. But at the moment the only nerf has been about the flamethrower.
I feel that wasn’t needed. While I had lots of fun with it on veteran (burning whole hordes of rats) i’ve never used it for champion or higher, because you need special killing (that’s the main point of ranged weaps in my opinion, and, quite sensibly, the only thing the flamethrower’s good at is burning hordes of rats)

You can’t just reduce ranged kills by 50% by lowering ammo by 50%. As a ranged class you can only shoot freely because you have the confidence that you won’t run out of ammo. If you remove that confidence by making ammo more limited the ranged play style collapses. Not knowing whether there will be an ammo crate around the corner or a chaos spawn means the only smart decision is to only shoot when you absolutely have to, but that’s how melee classes play already. Without a complete redesign of how the game works any changes will either effectively do nothing or remove ranged classes from the game.

If you actually look at the stats I don’t even see what the big deal is. Right now my record for ranged kills in one game is 399, mainly because of two hordes spawning near supply crates. Even considering that and the fact that the party also had pyro and waystalker in it, the ratio of ranged kills to melee kills was 57:43. If it’s not acceptable for a party with 3 ranged classes to have a 10 point ranged slant how much is?

its the devs fault for leaving this as it is for the first month of release let alone not addressing it in beta where it first became obvious. i suspect they got sidetracked byt eh whole power issue.

Continuing the discussion from Vermintide 2 - Patch 1.0.5 - Patch Notes - Updated & Hotfixed:

that’s the issue right there, it is not a close combat focused game and it never has been , there is not supposed to be any “ranged class” even sienna is meant to heavily use melee

but they have left the game in frankly a broken state and people are now expecting it, and who can blame them?

your first paragraph i think actually describes perfectly where ranged is supposed to be , its meant to be a powerful but limited resource you make a decision to use knowing you risk needing it later.

Yeah I agree with that. I think ammo is supposed to be used as a limited resource, to take down specials and bosses. What i don’t like terribly, is to see 3/4 characters in a group shooting everything all the time. Ammo should not be wasted against slave rats. If you want to clear hordes with range you get a flamethrower, a weapon designed to do that and nothing else.

But just to be crystal clear, the ammo situation is very strange here. Half the characters have half the ammo they had in VT1 (I’ve stopped using a handgun, because i don’t feel i can reliably kill specials with it) while a couple of classes get infinite ammo

Currently ammo is a limited resource to be used carefully by melee classes like foot knight and handmaiden. I don’t know what the developers were intending, but if they wanted the entire game to be like this why did they make several ranged focused classes that supported a different playstyle?

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well do you think they intended for the classes to be unbalanced? that there would be bugs in it ?
Mistakes are made . honestly i have no way to know what the devs really want , but the only balance they did was to nerf a bunch of ammo generation , the rest has been fixes or mostly , and they keep saying it is meant to be melee focused and in v1 everyone used melee a lot.

its a very tricky one for them to solve, the last day or so i don’t know if i have been lucky or people are just getting bored of the beam staff face roll but i have been having some groups without any of the current range meta class’s and you know what its not only a lot more fun for us , its smoother and easier.

the real problem as i see it is not that range is so powerful its that it makes the game a tedious bore of annoyance for the other half of the group.

I can’t say what they were intending but the fact is that right now the game has both melee classes and ranged classes and nerfing ammo is just going to make it so there are melee classes and melee classes with less useful talents.

Until stacking/collision is fixed, I don’t care to go melee vs hordes and patrols if I can avoid it until it’s been thinned down to smaller groups.

I played V1 alot and saying ”everyone was going melee” is a lie. Kruber’s assault rifle, Kerillian’s Legolas goto pewpew bow with 140 arrows for example was used alot. Way safer to take out Cata patrol with Krub or a horde with Kerillian that way instead of going melee.

Now we got different careers and yet you keep making this a contest of kills. Why nerf down ranged when you can just gather a group and go full melee mode if ranged is a red flag for you? This game is not even about competitive gaming so why even care if someone finishes a map by killing stuff from range?

Waystalker doesn’t have anything to support her in melee like Ironbreaker or Knight does. Players using ranged strenght with ranged careers is a good thing. Same goes for Slayer to hop into melee and killing those bigger melee threats. You see none whining about that tho…

Nerfing ranged classes to a crawl just shows how ignorant playerbase this game has. Not every career is meant to be played the same way. Boosting melee classes could solve some problems by making it more appealing to play, but truth is without proper ranged support 99% of this community would not be able to run even champion 3+2 as the game is now. Too many dangerous specials etc. that melee bois just cant deal with while fighting that horde/patrol/boss.

V1 needed both. Melee and ranged. With the exeption of really good players.

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i think half the people here whining have not played legend at all. i’d be VERY happy if i could just sit back and let the ranged take care of everything, but there’s no way that’s gonna happen when a boss + horde + specials come about, or an ambush from all directions etc.

i’d very much like to see how the whiners handle a chaos patrol from a distance. they’ll probably die in first engagement and then make another thread of how OP the patrols are, please nerf. lol

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no its my honest experience , never saw any of those builds , only had 270 hours in v1 and they were early in its life. /shrug

nope never a once.

thats why i have a problem with the current state.

And the handmaiden doesn’t have anything to support her ranged but she can still be useful there , the weapons are the same no matter who uses them and a waystalker can be very effective in melee

besides waystalker has talents that give her , attack speed, crit chance, headshot damage , crit damage,health regen group or solo , sta regen and health on kill/crit
nothing to help her in melee? im sorry but your simply wrong there.

she has 4 non melee related talents out of 25 and 3 of them are the last tier and a case could be made that at least one of those does help melee.

you see your assumption she is a ranged career is a bit suspect, i think it is more a case that people are playing her as a pure range because its so powerful then trying to justify it.

and no one is saying they should , no ones trying to stop ranged being ranged focused were just asking for a balance , for all 4 people to have something fun to do there is a lot of room from where we are now with ranged dominating the gameplay and them being useless melee characters.

not been my experience , only had a few games with melee centric groups but they tend to be smooth and fun , slower for sure but very doable.

no i think you’ll find its probably over 95% , There is a certain Elitism that creeps into the minds of a lot of legends players but the stats are interesting.
i guess v2 hasn’t been around long enough to settle down , or the number of people that have done all legend maps is so low as to not make it onto the charts but currently

1.3% have completed skitter gate on legend.
(and i bet that is a high that will drop as tme goes on)

its the least played , its the least relevant , its set up deliberately to be unfair and broken to keep that small population challenged. its meant to require the made group the planning and voice coms , its a special unicorn of a difficulty. they need to balance and fix the game around the actual playerbase. sure it needs to be possible and it clearly is but it cant be the focus and it cant be balanced like the others.
if its too hard for you you should play a lower difficulty!

ummm, i would rather fight a chaos patrol (which accounts for many many wipes in legend) with a shade or maiden, than a waystalker. she really doesn’t have any skills to help her move around in melee, waystalker will get wrecked if a couple of chaoswarriors target her, you have to dance around and hope to get some lucky crits in or one of your teammates to come to your rescue.

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This and this again.

I see people coming up with some questionable stories about Sienna players killing everything and that they don’t even have a chance to fight mobs using their swords and axes. If we are talking about legend then this is straight up bullsh…t.

Numbers don’t lie. If players in your group are good they ALL get their fair share of kills (if you care about it so much). EVERYONE. I played as SIenna, I played with Siennas on legendary and it has been always like this. Sometimese Siennas got more kills (not by much) especially if they used a fireball stave but it’s logical.
Most of the time, however, the kill count was pretty even coz everyone had to do their job coz legendary is a real mess.

I mean…how dare a ranged dps dealer using AOE(!) nukes to get more kills (trash mobs) than players with swords! Unthinkable! /s

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fair enough but that was to a response of someone claiming

but as it turns out if we actually look 88% of her talents help her in melee , and her ult can be used in melee with a melee weapon equipped, and she has all the base line essentials shared by everyone , dodge , block push etc

Ok , seems a bit redundant and obvious to say you’d rather fight melee with melee based characters, i might be missing your point?

She has dodge (which is much better in .5) and glaive so she has the exact same movement ability as knight and ironbreaker and is perfectly capable of wrecking CW’s . im not sure any character can survive or win being dog piled by mass amounts of CW’s , kind of think thats why there are so many of them and and why its a 4 player co-op not a solo game.

i was addressing your argument that the waystalker was just as effective in melee as the other two careers, but i disagree, because the other 2 class abilities help her disengage/kite which makes all the difference fighting a chaos warrior stack.

thing is, i am focusing on the critical parts of games where wipes are common, for example, chaos warrior patrols. it doesn’t matter what goes on in the rest of the game, because ANY class can handle everything else. you can play 4 tanks and get through the whole level, but the moment you hit that UNAVOIDABLE chaos patrol, your team NEEDS to handle it, or wipe. the only way you are going to avoid engaging that patrol in melee combat is if you:

  • exploit it by jumping onto an unreachable area
  • purple/str pot spam with sienna/BH/huntsman
  • explosive bomb spams

i can’t think of anything else that will keep a chaos patrol at range.

exactly, this is what i mean, the argument that ranged is better than melee is moot, it’s a coop game which needs different strats to take down diff engagements!

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I know what elf has and hasn’t. I wrote she has nothing like IB and Knight has. Waystalker can’t facetank CW overhead smash and go ”oi wazzok” at the same time… WS can’t push down CW like Knight can. Don’t twist my words.

I know she has crit etc, but that still don’t make it godly in melee. She’s a ranged career that gets nerfed constantly coz people think shes op or Sienna is. All chars are good when you know what to do.

V1 want about melee alone. You could run nm in any loadout and carry 3 idiots at the same time. Still win ez. On cata you started to have real problems if you didnt thin down hordes from range before they reached you. Same goes here in V2.

Ppl think Sienna is op coz of that beam staff. Yes it is great tool when kitted right. Most players dont kit it right and get smahed in legend. Seen it so many times in latest patch.

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oh i see , i didnt mean to twist your words, i read it the other way.
but yes you are of course right she has no mechanic to reduce damage when she fails in melee.

But i dont accept your assumption shes a ranged class, one that focus’s on ranged if you want but shes not weak in melee , no character is they all share the same essential mechanics and the arsenal at the elfs disposal is one of the best.

well people say sienna but i think everyone understands its the pyro / beam set up thats the biggest issue , just cant be bothered to type that out each time. and i dont think theres anyone that really believes its balanced?

And this is what i want to , and the problem is that sienna with her 25ish? second ult and beam staff and no overcharge constraints is the answer to every situation and she gets to answer every situation, If you get a huge CW patrol she might only be able to delete half of it before it gets to the group, but i really dont think that half a patrol (if one spawns) and a few stragglers really amount to an engaging game play experience.

i’ve never seen a sienna in legend being able to delete half a chaos warrior pack before they catch up to the party. maybe i’ve been getting some crappy mages in my quickplays

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