I die more to random riflemen who shoot into melee than I do to mutants, snipers, dogs, etc.
Mutant comes running, prepare to dodge it, take a lasrifle shot to the elbow, die.
Discuss.
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Melee hordes of few hundred are now low danger even in T5 missions. Crushers are easy even.
But 8-9 gunners, reapers at distance is lethal because of overtuned suppression. One gunner can somehow suppress an approaching Ogryn. So as can’t dodge forward, sort have to turn side ways and side dodge towards them as a means to rush them.
It really feels like just COD sometimes now. Shoot, cover to recover toughness, repeek, repeat, clear gunners whilst others keep away melee horde. It slows down pace of missions.
Peek, cover, shoot, Repeek.
Maybe I’m just too used to VT2 where I love diving into the horde like a swimming pool and heavy swing great hammer for crowd control with my dwarf.
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Random riflemen are not a significant threat. They force you to change your playstyle from mindlessly running in the open to using terrain, flanking and your own ranged weaponry. They can be consistently deleted in melee combat assuming you’re not in a map section designed intentionally to force you into a ranged conflict. You can also use other enemies to body block incoming shots and, assuming you are playing a melee class, use hordes as a resource to keep toughness high. They’re a big threat to newcomers to damnation because they have not been pressured by them terribly much until that point and the mechanics used to mitigate them have not been necessary. Even dropping down to heresy I feel like such a tank when facing off against a group of shooters.
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Exactly.
The overly strong trash shooters encourage slow and boring game play, and also, if you are Zlot/Ogryn pushes you to go heavy on toughness regen, which restricts build diversity.
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With choke points there is very little avenue for flanking. At least then it offers tactical approach. But if a straight narrow path with no side doors to go around, it’s facing dead on.
I still find it weird having to turn side ways and side dodge towards them, but it works. They need a forward dodge instead of sprinting for sudden leap forward.
Ogryn is useless at range unless using like a G stubber to tap fire then reset aim. But if not equipping ripper 2 with can opener you’re missing on 2-3 burst instant kill on crusher/reapers, which is pretty damn useful because there is hardly any downtime for follow up to next enemy, just like Zealot thunderhammer.
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At the end of the day this is a game of strategic positioning, whether that’s against melee, snipers, disablers, or bosses.
Don’t put yourself in a bad position and they are a non-issue. It’s as simple as that.
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No it doesn’t. At least not on zeaot. I play excusively stamina curios with no toughness regen blessings whatsoever and do my best to be in melee all game except in the most obviously suicidal conditions.
I even put this to the test and preformed just fine as a damnation solo chaxeman. Its annoying waiting for gunner’s to stop shooting so I can charge them if I don’t want to use grenades but that’s why zealot has a gun.
this is a hybrid shooter/melee game. It has good gunplay and i know some people wanted to just nobrain charge packs of enemies with rifles across open ground. but i don’t want you to be able to do that. Its stupid. Except the ogryn’s and zealot’s charge, since they are stupid and should not get staggered out of it. Ranged enemies are a threat when you position badly, as they should be. But the average run in damnation is usually, actually, ended by hordes with elites or specials mixed in.
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The issue is that the “good” position is often to stay behind cover and shoot at literal bots because of some sprinkled trash shooters (not gunners/reapers).
That is arguably the most boring part of game play and that is the whole issue.
I may have missed it because I just skimmed, but the only situation where there were any significant number of shooters is at the end of that video when you died mostly because of shooters (not the Plague Ogryn itself - I’m assuming you can solo it 1 on 1), so you’re kinda proving my point here.
EDIT: who knows how that fight would have gone if at 40:54 you didn’t lose all your toughness from one shot of a random shooter behind a box. This is an issue. It just doesn’t feel deserved even when they are on your screen, let alone when they are spread all over the place.
Yes, and when you are using your ranged weapon to take care of that Sniper/Bomber in the distance while engaged in fighting a mixed horde, it works and is really interesting.
But when you are up against a room of trash shooters sprinkled all over the place, where you need to “clean” the room by shooting at bots, it’s just boring and annoying.
I get you.
I HATE Dregs the most. There shooters are the worst! They stay as long as they need with their Rifle up. It makes sense somehow, sicne they are Cultist and not trained Soldiers, but still it hurts…^^
1, Know when to go into Melee and when shooting.
GENERAL RULE: Shoot Melees and Melee Shooters.
2,Use VoiP or Teamspeak/ Discord
Yes some players go mad when one uses VoiP, but thers a reason for it and its a good one. If they dont like you using Voip, dont frakkin Care.
These are little CoD Player who have no incentove of Teamplay. Everyone thinks hes a GigaChad and doesnt need it. Most Cases these are the forst to die!
Players often think, cause its a PVE Game its easy
3, ALWAYS TELL your TEAM, WHEN you are going to rush into Melee if theres a OVERWHELMING SHOOTER FRONT!
THEY need to COME with you TOO!
4, Soemtimes it helps making up ROles with Randoms aswell. If you see a Preacher with Thunderhammer or the like, tell that hes Primary killing Muties f.ex.
OR just call the Mutie out to a Player who has the capabilities when to kill MUtie when facing a big Shooter Front. bUT THEN AGAIN…
RULE 1& 2 applies here
5, Always kill the Trash first before engaging in a fight with a Boss. One player can Kite the boss while the other kill trash mobs!
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You know IF the game worked the way it should, then melee classes could whip out their pistols and suppress enemies which would loos accuracy SAME AS THE PLAYER DOES.
And using this method you could approach them.
Also smoke nades, cover and other methods how to get close.
But what is best? Let your veteran friend kill most of the ranged enemies and then you are allowed to have fun in melee, MAYBE
The problem isn’t the gunners themselves, it’s when they keep shooting at you when you engage their group, or worst shoot at you when you’re in the middle of a melee pack.
Both of these situations are clearly not supposed to happen, as the vast majority of the time the AI works properly and the shooters will move into melee when you engage their group, and won’t shoot you when you’re in melee.
But sometimes it messes up and they do, randomly shredding your entire toughness while you’re in melee. It’s insanely frustrating.
Of course the random pot-shots from complete darkness that happen to halt your Ogryn / Zealot charge / Cancel your Psyker staff attacks are insanely aggravating too, but apparently that’s “on purpose” unlike the above.
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The gunner, reaper suppression makes you play in a reserved and often boring way. Holding back, cover and drop them one by one. Whoever can’t takes role of crowd control.
If not you’re just waiting for the Vet to do their part and simply…wait. I never said it was difficult, just really slows mission pacing in that if you don’t have long range weapon you feel left out from contributing, whilst everyone else is having fun.
Yea, non long range users can still flank/rush. But that just adds element of unnecessary risk when going alone and leaving the rest of the group that is firing to do the job. Then they’ll get annoyed if they have a timer to revive you on top of what they’re supposed to be doing.
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Shooters are currently overtuned, and I’m not even sure Fatshark knows they reverted them to pre-nerf.
Players were complaining for a good reason before, that’s why they got a nerf that made them fair.
But Fatshark don’t have version control so we are playing on an older game build right now.
The change to shooters is so massive a lot of players INSTANTLY knew the devs fu’ed something up when they loaded into a game with the last patches.
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But I recovered like half of my toughness shortly after without taking any damage when i charged that dog. I subsequently bodyblocked a literal army of shooters and gunners using the plague ogryn at the gates, stunned only a fraction of them with a grenade, and then dodged and slid my way inside. I eventually died when I got chased through a hall of enemies. But that wouldn’t have gone any better for me if I had run into a patrol of crushers or maulers or whatever else. Even a poxwalker spawn at that point could have been potentially fatal because I would risk getting surrounded. I would have gotten hit by something since I only have so much dodge, block and stamina. In that video I take on several large groups of gunners and supporting shooters. None of those 30 man strong dreg shooter waves, to be sure, but 4 reapers and some dreg gunners with mixed dreg shooters is probably more challenging to the solo melee player than a patrol spawn of shooters. Patrol spawns are fodder for me when I initiate the charge.
I think this is the real crux of the issue. If shooters aren’t dangerous at range then they aren’t worth shooting. If they’re not worth shooting then this isn’t a hybrid combat game. You simply don’t enjoy that part of the game. Which is completely fair, its just a matter of taste. But plenty of people do. I certainly do when I play vet.
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The shooters are fine. If youre dying to shooters you or your team made a critical mistake somewhere
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They’re not fine, and they acknowledged it by nerfing them in a patch that is no longer effective.
I’m not saying I’m dying to them, but getting pushed and CC’d like a pinball from 2 shooter bursts feels so frustrating I don’t even want to play on this current patch.
Its even more obvious in elite resistance modifier where I instantly lost all toughness + 300hp as ogryn in a single burst from 2 shooters hidden in a little balcony.
Everyone in the lobby was pointing out how ridiculously overtuned they are in this mode.
They may have reverted the shotgunners nerfs too but I’m not sure about this one.
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Ogryn and Zealot mains after they rush a firing line, a sniper, 5 gunners, 3 reapers and 2 grenediers and inevitably get pinned:
“WTF VET, PSYKER, WHERE ARE YOU!!?!11”
Meanwhile, the psyker, and the vet dealing with 3 mutants, 2 dogs, 3 flamers, a burster conga line and a horde (all which spawned behind the team) while somehow managing to keep the Ogryn and Zealot mains alive:
Then like clockwork, after the match, they log on here and post about there not being enough stuff for them to smack in the face in glorious melee.
Memes aside, melee specialist mains need to learn how to read the fight. Rushing the firing line is warranted in some fights, not in others. If you don’t want to worry about being turned into swiss cheese while still being entertained (the AI director will always oblige, especially in hi int/STG T5s). Stop forcing your psyker and veteran to do your jobs for you because you couldn’t keep your murder boner in check. Otherwise, don’t expect fire support while they’re stuck doing your jobs for you. Stop acting surprised or like shooters need to be nerfed again (I do agree that suppression mechanics need tuning though, too much crap is too resistant or recovers too quick).
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Think about what you are saying.
You used your ultimate ability to mitigate only 50% of what a single shooter trash did to you in one shot. They literally pose a bigger threat than reapers and gunners combined. They are more effective than snipers in most cases.
That’s just lazy design of artificial difficulty (IMO worse than bullet sponges). Artificial, because it just makes the game more annoying instead of what real difficulty would be like. For example:
- Flamers not fixing the point of fire, but following you so it’s more difficult to avoid
- Mutants not throwing you, but always slamming you so you can’t avoid damage if grabbed
- Reaper aim following you unless behind wall
- Snipers simply doing more damage (leave you with 1HP regardless of how much health you had.
etc. etc.
But…but, this is the game. Learning when to shoot, when to melee and when to move or switch. You want Just Melee, then play dynasty warriors.
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No I used it to kill a dog safely and also recover toughness enough to reduce incoming damage if I took some. Toughness is not a healthbar it is a mitigation for a singular enemy attack that you fail to dodge, which I did. In melee and at range. The only time this is different is at lower difficulties.
No they don’t. Gunners are much more dangerous if you get caught in the open due to copious stagger and health shredding. A single shooter will fire a burst and give you time to respond.
Not really. They have telegraphing visual and audio mechanics to allow you to dodge, slide, or sprint.
Having enemies deliver greater damage to you at higher difficulties is the ideal difficulty modifier considering all the ways you have in place already to avoid damage. Assuming you are playing zealot, who does not have passive regen solo, sure its a bit tougher to deal with them. But if you are rolling with your squad like you should be then it is no problem as you have constant toughness regen for free. PLUS you have access to toughness regen when in group situations.
- Flamers follow you if you don’t start efficient sprinting, actually.
- How is this different from shooters shooting you? Its just damage you took that you can only avoid by dodging.
- They literally do this?
- They do plenty of damage as it is if you have toughness. But how is this different from your complaint about shooters?
If you know how to move you can mitigate huge volumes of incoming fire. Observe.
Me and another zealot are just dodging swathes of ranged fire with limited cover.
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