Pyromancer Beam build nerf

You didnt. Uou threw a tantrum.
Give us details or video evidence that your claim isn’t baseless, then we can discuss facts.
Burden of proof is on you.

It’s an open internet forum. You do not get the luxury of tailoring a conversation to cater to your needs.
If you talk rubbish like a child, you will be treated as such.

This post was somehow flagged.
There are no insults, nor badmouthing.
I wonder how many “flags” did i get, so forum decides to hide post with 6 likes.

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I don’t have personal experience of the build from either side, but gathering from the general opinions here: The “wigglemancer” isn’t as effective as some Pyromancer builds, but it’s effective enough to work, and at a relatively low skill level to boot. Low enough, in fact that many players who use it are possibly playing above otherwise suitable difficulty, and certainly well enough for many players to forget to switch to melee every once in a while.

I find that… Quite easy to believe, actually. Having played some other interesting builds with, Pyro, I think the problem lies (still) in the interactions between her very high crit rate, the crit-dependent Traits and a few certain weapons that allow a very high rate of crit proccing. While the Beam is the most prominent example (probably because it’s a versatile and, by itself, non-obtrusive weapon) But Flamewave Staff can also achieve similar results (regularly losing more heat than it gains with Heat Sink), and to a lesser degree, Bolt can use the same interactions too. Something similar can be seen on Bounty Hunter, who can produce a huge amount of ammo using Scrounger and Blessed Shots. Both feel broken to me.

Some solutions have been suggested multiple times already, but I personally think that either lowering the crit rate Pyro gets from her passive in general or replacing the crits in the passive(s) with a similar damage bonus could be a good start. The crit rates on Pyro (and BH) invite abuse.

i love playing with wigglemancers because their beamstaff usually holds a huge group of trash mobs at one spot, which i then proceed to kill using 1-3 arrows. each of my arrows kill like 2-3 units, while the pyromancer would still be struggling to kill even 1 in that time, because of how slow the beamstaff kills on it’s regular beam. green circles ftw!!!

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I’m playing mainly melee classes at the moment, and I find it frustrating.

It’s not that it feels like it slows down the run, not do I care how much they kill, or even the ult spam, though I’ll admit that it is irritating. its the wiggle.

The player who is doing it is unable to miss melee classes and while it does next to no damage, it causes at least 2 screen interrupts for you and the flames on the enemies leave you wondering what is dead and what is not. Further the player doing it never ignores an enemy that is being killed by another player. The amount of times I’ve been off 90 degrees to the side killing a rat sneaking up on the beam staff user and had said user turn and flame me is too high for me to legitimately guess at.

This is not like just about any other ranged weapon where you get shot as the shooter runs fowards to where he cant miss dodges back and shoots hitting the melee character, I can avoid that with care, these players simple burn any moving target, and with this particular staff and builds the damned thing is never in cool-down…

I’m so tired of it I’ve found myself just leaving the team behind to get away from it.

::edit below I meant to say “Personally I’m NOT after” so changing it now…*

Personally I’m not after a nerf, I just want it not to “burn” unless its on it’s target for a full tick, or a sniper shot, and the same goes for all it’s proc effects (on crit, ect.) which is how I believe it is supposed to work. (Though I’m not opposed to looking and some more serious mechanical changes to the the beam staff.)

I would not mind seeing damage from a single rat targeting you raised either, making the ranged users (me included as I do play ranged chars about 50% of the time,) take more care about being back-stabbed as opposed to just staying locked in ranged mode.

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WTF am I doing in this thread, its a bloody clown car and the clowns are just going to keep coming out… god damn it someone get me out of this clown makeup…

The ult is fine. It’s being able to have it up every 3-5 seconds with a full CDR build that’s the problem. Believe it or not, patch 1.0.6 removed on-hit procs on the initial beam tick to fix this issue. It seems this was regressed? Or added back intentionally – albeit silently? As numerous other people have mentioned, FS needs to either re-implement the 1.0.6 fix or add a hard proc limit within a certain time frame.

If this proc interaction was fixed, there would be much less wiggling (your second complaint). This is still an effective control technique against hordes at a distance, but removal or reduction of the RSS interaction would reduce this to a normal level.

As an aside, raising these points re Pyro is rarely met with open-minded conversation (in my experience). Quite a few people seem to see no issue with the proc interaction - despite the repeated posts and the mountain of evidence that the build is stupidly unbalanced. I suspect it’s because they aren’t terribly good at using it. RSS/beam is good against all unit types in all situations. It allows a skilled player to carry a legend game by himself. I have had people regularly accuse me of cheating or simply leave games in frustration since they don’t get to kill anything. But this evidence is always anecdotal and scoreboards are meticulously nitpicked/discredited, so there’s no way to ever “prove” this. So we simply circle the same issue endlessly.

My preferred build so people can tell me how stupid I am… I enjoy that ever so much.

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The irony of your post is almost painful. Tons of evidence has already been presented for why the proc interaction on beam is broken. You can easily search this forum. It’s just that’s it’s never enough.

Use anecdotal evidence? It gets dismissed. Use screenshots? They are picked apart. Point out how beam is good against all enemy unit types in all situations and compare it side by side to other weapons? Ignored. Demonstrate boss damage on sustained beam? Ignored. Point out that damage spreadsheets don’t really speak to in-game performance? Ignored. Hell, I could post 100 gameplay videos of back-to-back legend games with all those sweet, sweet green circles and that probably still wouldn’t be enough.

It’s pretty hard to have a discussion when one side has already made up their mind.

So, cool. Thanks for letting us know that OP’s post is a “joke.” He must be stupid I guess – as well as the dozens of other people who have made the exact same post. It does seem like this comes up a lot, though. Maybe, just maybe… this might indicate that there is an actual problem? But probably not. Everyone who posts about this issue is an idiot and doesn’t know how to play, right? Right?

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It has been claimed many times, yes. For all we know, it is working as intended according to devs. If not, they will change it. The issues with endgame screenshots are still valid, as they have very little value in proving anything. If anything, videos of this build show that it is rather ineffective and unreliable, and that the beam staff underperforms horribly if you just rely on CDR and wiggling. I top scoreboards on a regular basis with bolt staff and flame sword, a build I really like and I find astonishingly powerful, and it certainly doesn’t run CDR (even though that works quite well). Does that prove that bolt staff is OP?

Go right ahead, we’d all be more than happy to see that, at least I would be. It would at least allow for some kind of conclusive evidence how one player consistently performs with it.
Don’t get me wrong: I think the beamwiggle build is horribly annoying. But I rarely see it nowadays since most players seem to have realized that Pyro’s potential is with her weapon primarily and the burning head secondly (it complements many builds well). And quite honestly, if someone plays meme-staff Pyro and it outperforms all other present players, they are not carrying their own weight.

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real problem

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I’d love to know why 1.0.6 was reverted. Or why the wiggle with RSS should be an intended mechanic at all.

My post from two months ago is still 100% relevant:

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There is no need to only beam/wiggle. In fact, I’d say it shines when woven into the rest of the staff’s attacks.

Cool. I guess I’ll just point to your own comments to show how the burden of proof here is impossible to meet? If I show you 100 screenshots, then screenshots are invalid. If I show you videos, my teammates suck? If I produce any evidence that that the mechanic is broken, one person doing poorly/okay with it is immediately persuasive counter-evidence?

I’m pretty sure if I created a beam staff in real life, used it to take over the world single-handedly, and then enslaved FS and forced them to change this stupid weapon mechanic, there would still be a group on this forum that refused to believe it was unbalanced.

Last I heard, hedge had said it was an intended feature. But that he’s always willing to listen to feedback.

Beam wiggling is annoying, but it’s vastly weaker compared to just using the staff normally… I’ve shown this in previous threads. It’s not that hard to test yourselves, equip the beam staff, wiggle it on the modded relm with damage numbers turned on. You hit around 100-200 damage per hit until you proc the burning head, you then throw this out and kill 6 or so trash mobs, or 1 heavy. Or, you can just go WS and fire a long bow shot through the horde and kill faster and do more damage. Or Salty and fire his xbow or repeater bow which hits double the damage of seinnas burning head. Or, imagine this, you can actually use the staff normally lol. Try running up and shotgun blasting everything. It’s actually a lot more effect than beam wiggle nonsense. You can build for it as well, so you get more right clicks off before overheating.

This is the problem with people crying for nerfs when they don’t seem to know enough about the game. It all comes down to “feelings”. If you’re getting out shined by a meme-staff wiggle noob, then you need to step your game up. I guess the fact I can go top of most of my games with WHC and xbow means it should prolly get nerfed as well?

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You are very much correct and I never claimed I was “empircally correct” with my statement. That is just my sentiment out of my own, personal experience and from what I have seen both in game as well as in videos. I personally outperform RSS-Sienna builts (at least those I have seen) with other builds, which makes my own personal experience that it is not as effective as people want to make it out to be.

Even within your unnecessarily polemic and aggressive rantings, you do raise a good point: Evidence for something being “overpowered” is actually hard to come by, as there are so many variables to take into account that differ from player to player that it is VERY hard to get objective data. Even IF FS hat all meta-data available, it would still be largely inconclusive.
The next best thing we have is: “does it, by very large standard, roughly match the impact of other builds”. This is easy for certain weapons to determine: weapon’s that don’t have a reliable way to deal with armour are going to be overlooked on Legend if they do not have benefits that warant their use and their inability to deal with armour cannot be balanced out by your other weapon. That is very easily objectifiable because we CAN actually conclude from end-game screenshots how many elites are, by and large, killed on a map and it can be roughly extrapolated how many of those are armoured. Other than that, this experience can be replicated by almost anybody playing the game: Engage a SV with hammer and shield pre-buff, and see how well that goes for you.
The other thing we have is: Does it match what FS have envisioned? Remember the HS nerf? And I don’t mean the ridicilous damage it dealt because of damage calculations were changed (not intended). FS thought HS was too powerful and they changed it. Many a folk seems to disagree, but is there really a way to objectively state that? In the end, I, personally, am still doing fine with HS. He lacks significant boss damage now, but he can still contribute in killing bosses and he still is a very good elite and special killer.

Throw a tantrum all you want, that won’t change the fact that YOUR opinion that you want to sell as objective fact doesn’t magically become the truth. I wouldn’t mind if they removed “beam wiggling”, even though it is just one tool in your arsenal with beam and I can see why they wouldn’t change crit procs too much with it.

If you were honest for just a second, just look around this board and see how many topics deal with “x is OP / y is the reason why Legend is 2 ez / pls nerf z nao or else”. Huntsman is OP, Shade is OP, Waystalker is OP, Handmaiden is OP, Hagbane is OP, Dual Daggers is OP, Temp Health is OP.

Wouldn’t you agree that if all these things were oh so easily proved and objectifiable, we wouldn’t have THAT many different opinions about what is OP in this game and what is not?
People are advocating for a change with beam staff and RSS, which is totally fine. They don’t like it, they think it is too strong and gave their reasoning, which is fine. But if you are advocating for a change, you better have a better argument to make than “I don’t like it, it is objectively OP because everyone says so and if you disagree, I hate you!”. You have to deal with it that people either don’t give a damn about endgame screenshots, or have me produce my own where I or someone else completely roflstomps anything the RSS build could accomplish (which I won’t do, because I find the idea to be quite daft) and take that as objective proof that you are wrong. Or we could just revert back from trying to back our personal opinions and impressions with bogus evidence and just try to argue with other aspects like: It shouldn’t be like that, because xyz. Perceived “effectivity” is just a poor standard to go by, simply because perception and experience between players are so vastly different.

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Wow that was jumbled.

Responding generally to the (same?) arguments made in the first and second half of your post, I agree that we can talk about whether the proc interaction makes sense without pointing to videos/screenshots. In fact, I did just that! Here’s a link. I’ll draw your attention to my OP and comment five. No one responded to my comment five, just FYI. Oh, and you were on that chain…

As a fun aside, during that conversation, you performed splendidly. You accused someone of creating a rigged video? And of lying? That was certainly a more aggressive way to go about undermining someone’s evidence. I’ll have to remember that trick. Oh, and your original comment is gone now. I guess you deleted it? Maybe you were embarrassed? Parts are still quoted in comment 19 for the lolz.

If I seem frustrated, it’s at the way people like you and Smoker have attacked others on the other side of the issue and dismissed out of hand anything they had to say. For example, Smoker’s statement that no one has offered any real proof of an issue with the proc interaction beyond our “feelings” and that this issue is “silly.” That’s what Smoker said in this chain. Do I need to quote him again?

In fact, the opposite is true. Many, many people have raised this specific issue and have offered both video/screenshot evidence as well as a reasoned analysis of why this proc interaction doesn’t make sense.

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Cool. PM me and I’ll just show you myself.

what?

Because that’s exactly what happens, and that’s why you made that thread you just linked in your previous post.

It was because of this thread, the original one, Video of Pyromancer with Resourceful Sharpshooter Beam Staff and Exhaust vs Legend Horde - #132 by SmokerT69

In which it basically boiled down to you not considering the Beam staff overpowered, but bugged instead. Now it’s Overpowered again…

This has been discussed to death.

Yeah, because the issue fundamentally hasn’t been addressed by Fatshark through either patch notes or posts. If players knew more about intended balance, plus what things were intentional and why, then feedback could be better overall.

At least these threads have stopped devolving as quickly. This one took 4 days!

Hey, I absolutely agree with your sentiment, but WS ULT killing 5+ SV (on Legend, I assume) is insane. That, or you are an even more insane WS player. You said something about providing raw data, screenshots, etc. Please, just for the sake of my unsatiated curiousity, provide me with something of the sort so that my eyes can lay gaze upon a 5+ SV getting killed by a simple WS ULT. Holt sh*t.

Out of the obvious empyrical conversation that you guys are obviously trying to partake in, but! Listen, just from a simple player perspective - don’t you get a little agitated the moment a beam/pyro spammer joins your run? I know I do. And I play that sh*t myself when I want to take things VERY EASY. It’s maybe a little bit of a personal feeling, but when some subclass with a certain loadout THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY BROKEN makes me facepalm IRL when I see it in-game, then I know that something about this subclass/loudout is off. Surely enough, beam/pyro is about balanced (save for wiggling), but it’s not fun to play with.