Psyker balance, when?

As everybody seems to open a thread about nerfing, I open mine about BALANCING.
Psyker is the class that deals the highest damages in matches since october 2023.

When will we get a balance for this class?
I don’t talk about just nerfing. Nerfing is easy, balancing is more complex.
I believe, but I don’t play psyker, that there is maybe a problem about soulblaze.
At contrary, scier gaze is great… but we rarely see any player using it.
Really, when you look at scoreboards, the Psyker is clearly unbalanced.
And do we have to point the Purgatus staff? Seriously, this thing is annoying as hell (you cannot see anything) and so deadly that it is the most used weapon in game.

In my dreams, I would have wanted an exhaustion system for Psyker to avoid infinite ammos for the staves. But I don’t believe it will happen but it would be really great, and even few seconds where you have to use your melee.

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They’re probably afraid of the review bombs. This time it wouldn’t just be asia but EU and the US as well.

A lot of people crutch on flame staff.

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At least make it so Perilous Combustion doesn’t wipe out the entire room of enemies on its own. It didn’t use to do that, and I’ve never seen anyone complain about it.

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Just let me blast their brains out when they start talking heretical things (which they always do), and we’ll be OK!

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Yea, you don’t play psyker, and it shows. It’s great that you’re still ready to share opinion on how to balance the class though, can’t go wrong if we did just that.

Scryer’s Gaze is number one choice for any damage-oriented Psyker build these days. And there is nothing wrong with Soulblaze on itself, in fact it’s actually much less damaging than toxin DoT. There are may be two psyker’s builds that are an issue - Flame Staff build (and it’s mostly broken due to the weapon itself which can easily stack up SB to ridiculous levels on mobs) and infinite Smiter build which doesn’t really kill that much but stops everything in place indefinitely.

Aside from those Psyker is no way OP, unlike HS it’s a truly glass cannon class. You relax for a few seconds and stop dodging/killing stuff - you go down from a bunch of chaffers. There are no “ignore damage” abilities in the tree at all, neither you will be able to eat overheads and walk away.

EDIT:
Okay, there is one “ignore damage” ability - the one that protects you from range attack for 1s on crit hit. But that one will only work - again - until you keep doing something, it’s not just a passive shield like what HS has for example. And only really works that well for builds using rapidly hitting attacks (mostly EK and Flame staves).

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Sorry about your scums hate…
I have never asked any buff for the Scums. You can speak to Fathsark for this.

However, Psyker is dealing far more damages that any class for several years. And that’s a fact.
It may have a problem with Scums, but it is clearly due to Fatshark decisions

About scier gaze, I may be wrong. I said it I don’t play psyker. And I was not precise in my sentence. I wanted to say that I don’t see gunner psyker and exclusively staves users.

But there is still a BIG issue with Psyker…

And about Scums, I don’t know how to say to Fatshark that they need to stop this non sense where they buff every patch the Scums. I really don’t know how to make them understand that they should cease the power creep. Really, this is hopeless.

And that’s issue how exactly? It’s a damage dealing, hoard clearing class, its their thing. There is nothing wrong with dealing a lot of damage - if you trade off something for that. In Psyker’s case it’s survivability.

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psyker is still the squishiest, no?

psyker also lacks some kind of universal brittleness/rending node unlike vet.

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Then is it an issue that Scums deals also far more damages?

but nothing, that works almost 100% of time if you’re using a fast recon las + crit.

as long as you have ammo and you hit something, it’s up; if you reload, you have like 6 actual dodges.

It is, in general. The two builds I mentioned may kinda get around that. Flame staff can just kill hoards, including heavy armor, while constantly fueling itself with toughness those kills generate, indefinitely due to Scryer’s Gaze and the left keystone synergies. While at the same time being immune to range attacks as Flame Staff constantly generates crit hits. And Smite + SG allows to just stop entire hoards on their tracks, not allowing anybody to hit you, indefinitely.

Those are two broken builds that I can agree are problematic.

EDIT:
Also Flame Staff applies a fair amount of stagger, making it even safer.

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Thank you…

Understand me. I do not want, AT ALL, nuking psyker or ANY psyker build. Just to see them balanced.

No. Like, when I play my Voidblast / Shrike build after, say, ogryn or arbitrator, the difference is felt immediately. Unless I constantly twitch-dodge and twitch-slide as psyker, I start losing toughness and HP really fast. It’s basically a dancing style of play, you must not allow for anything to touch you.

Scryer’s gaze makes it considerably better (after all, it’s ability designed first of all to help melee psyker’s builds) at a price of losing some utility, but still you will go down really fast if you’ll start playing the game like you do as ogryn or arbitrator.

that’s a build problem

Not quite. The build I play was actually considered a “meta” years ago. It’s just after insane buffs to other things (which now overshadow it) and general disaster caused by the golden toughness spam - which FS unwisely tried to counteract with making even trash mobs more aggressive and dealing more damage - that lead to anything except a few meta builds to struggle.

I hate how their tree is involve in soul blaze and flame staff its best for that source, its need more wider for other staff

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The issue is how to prevent (assuming you want to balance inferno staff) inadvertently nerfing other suff that has overlapping talent use.

Crit giving 1s of dodge against ranged attack still benefits melee psyker (i play fgs, which has sloow attack) so if you touch the talent youre hurting another build to pick just one example. There are numerous other talent like that.

Perilous combustion works on elite/special kill, but stacking those kills up tight in a small space and within a narrow time interval with fgs typically requires a fully charged special attack which takes time and active melee engagement to build up, so nerfing PC would indirectly nerf my sword build. And other melee weapons build that use PC even more.

It seems to me any desired adjustment would have to be on inferno staff itself (perhaps the infinite cleave thing, or whether crits give double sb stacks), and possibly venting shriek.

Anything that touches talents with overlapping use is a hard no for me.

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Empyric Shock as a Brittleness debuff teammates could use rather than strictly just Warp damage buff would be nice, but not before some changes to reduce staff spam.

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DoTs are a design problem that plagues DT in general, not just with Psyker. Psyker is just the class that applies dots most efficiently and has the best statistics regarding them.

If you think about it, of course an exponentially stacking damage mechanic would be very OP if you let a class apply it to an unlimited amount of targets in a horde game. The exponential part makes sure it it scales with elite HP, the unlimited aoe makes sure it scales with large amounts of enemies.

When Ogryn was distinctly falling behind the other classes and the game kept spawning more elites and made them higher HP to compensate for those, Fatshark most notably decided to make his batter passive (which already existed in a near-useless form before, I’m aware) which bandaid “fixed” all of his weapons by just giving them bleed dots so they all do the same amount of damage: Exponential bleed damage to everything they hit. Disregarding that bleed dots don’t make a ton of sense thematically for a 10 foot ogre swinging a club around, this introduced the balance problem of giving him a “static” cleave value, giving every enemy hit a flat amount of damage taken via bleed.

While I don’t want to distract from how Psyker is far stronger at applying dots, this is problematic in that context too, because it effectively removed one dimension from weapon balance for Ogryns. In general, for cleaving, Fatshark seems to make a few distinct archetypes of weapons, which are:

  • cleaves well, staggers well, but doesn’t do a lot of damage to all but the first things it hits (hammers, clubs, “crowd control tank” design. Example: wide club swings)
  • cleaves well, doesn’t stagger well but has a VERY good cleave distribution of damage, which allows them to kill a crowd faster (swords, blades, “lawnmower” design. Example: wide cleaver swings)
  • doesn’t cleave well, but kills the first few things it hits (axes, crowbill, “singletarget” design. Example: ogryn doesn’t have one, but combat axes.

Now, aforementioned dot design is problematic because it destroys the dynamic between the “club” cleave profile and “sword” cleave profile. If the club just applies bleed stacks to kill everything it hits too, then what does the sword have? Now it needs MORE cleave to distinguish itself. Now you’re looking at a weapon that kills hordes way too well. Now you need to “upward adjust” spawns and just non stop spam tough elites that can take being cleaved a bit, so basically 40 ragers all the time. This isn’t just an issue with armor pen and combat sword, it’s also an issue with these dot mechanics.

It doesn’t only do this to cleave distributions, it also completely turns breakpoint design upside down. Non-dot damage can miss breakpoints. Dot damage, on top of everything else, ramps up and thus doesn’t care about breakpoints much, inherently. Exceptions are slow deliberate applications like the needle pistol primary fire mode, which while strong, isn’t just indiscriminate dot spam.

I think that balance-wise, this game would by far benefit most if Fatshark first and foremost stopped crutching on exponential damage stacks as a bandaid balance measure and redesigned dots entirely. Shock is a great example of a dot that actually is unique mechanically and makes sense. Bleed, burn, toxin, soulblaze are all just the same unhealthy “exponential stacking damage” concept, just with different visuals, and all of them need to be redesigned to not destroy the game’s balance so fundamentally.

This post ended up being very long but I rarely see the topic of dots brought up and I think it’s inherently a very bad concept for Darktides balance health.

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I have to chime in and say two things:

  • Psyker is not squishy anymore. It has very strong damage reduction skills without uptime problems and the best toughness regeneration. Pair this with a fast critty weapon and you have one heck of a sturdy character with insane mobility.
  • Scriers make psykers even sturdier, it just isn’t seen so much because bubble allows for easier clutches/better support and all the nice fluff of scriers generally isn’t needed because Psyker is already very strong without it.
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