Problems and real solutions to the Vet talent tree

[PantsRKing]

While there have been many posts about this topic, I wanted to make one going over what went wrong, why it went wrong, and some real possible solutions to it.

The Why It really feels like the approach to Vet this patch was “he is a problem - we need to fix” instead of a labor of love “what new styles of play can we give the vet” - for a more indepth rant of sorts detailing that, you can read my post:

The Veteran "problem" and how to fix it

Unfortunately the problems with the talent tree (imo) are significantly more than vet “being weak” (To be clear I am not saying he is weak) In my experience with various people involved with the balancing/talents he was viewed primarily as “the problem” to be fixed, and you have a talent tree that reflects this. All of his abilities that empower his “Vet” (ranged) gameplay are almost exactly the same as before but weaker (or gone altogether) with the exception of being able to apply 40% brittle…

What went wrong Veteran is very much the same as he was prior to the patch, just so much less. While there were “additions” to his class, they were for the most part very anemic - mostly just adding flat stats. This just turns him into a bad and bland Zealot.

The two abilities added to the Vet mostly give flat damage, and flat toughness, which is incredibly boring/vanilla and doesn’t enable new styles of play to any real extent.

Stagger (Krubers ult) was great in V2, but things die so much faster, the stagger doesn’t affect many units, there is way more range, and you can’t use ult during revives/actions which makes this just so much worse in DT. It isn’t an exciting ult in V2 either, to be fair, but it is good.

Invisibility already done by zealot, and just done better. Zealots ult enables certain assassin type tactics and is valuable for expanding the options of builds/play available.
Vets… gives him flat toughness and damage, and makes enemies aggro to his allies so they die faster.

The Veteran isn’t actually weak - if you select any of the numerous incredibly strong ranged weapons, his tree will improve them making the Vet strong. He is strong inspite of his talent tree, not because of it and this greatly limits the ways to build/play the Vet, and makes the talent tree way less rewarding - and it already feels bad the way it is organized.

While re-arranging things like toughness and ammo nodes to be more accessible is important, the the Vet also needs options besides “get 20% more melee damage for 5 seconds” for an ult, because that is lifeless and boring.

To that end I offer a few suggestions:

Add ults and skills that encourage new and fun playstyles, that will allow people to be creative with how they approach the class, and build the skill tree. I have put down two potential (and fitting) archetypes, the abilities and potential skills that could be used to match that play style that would still fit a Vet, and could still be used in other builds.
EDIT: Do I have Commissar power-fantasies? very possibly. Would I use an ability requiring me to kill an ally to give moral (buffs for the rest of the team) without hesitation - not even a little ashamed. Remember, Commissars don’t kill Guardsmen, cowardice does.

The Real Vet Fix

[Heretical_Cactus]

@PantsRKing

Invisibility already done by zealot, and just done better. Zealots ult enables certain assassin type tactics and is valuable for expanding the options of builds/play available.
Vets… gives him flat toughness and damage, and makes enemies aggro to his allies so they die faster.

On this I agree, the Vet stealth is somewhat un-original (Even in the copy of ability they could have been more original with an Outcast engineer system for a Volley Gun Veteran)

@PantsRKing

EDIT: Do I have Commissar power-fantasies? very possibly. Would I use an ability requiring me to kill an ally to give moral (buffs for the rest of the team) without hesitation - not even a little ashamed. Remember, Commissars don’t kill Guardsmen, cowardice does.

Just have the Commissar get something for killing Elites+, and then it’s not gonna be a tool used by Griefer.

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Now for the google doc:

Ability: Pistolero/Gunslinger (Catachan) Allows you to use both ranged weapon (possibly restrict to pistol type weapons?) and melee at the same time

This doesn’t work for 2 reasons:

• Weapons are animated by themselves, this would mean remaking all of the animations, but this also mean making all pairing work for every 1 handed weapons. → Instead make devoted “weapons” that are from base 1h weapon + Pistol
• You need to have a melee weapon (even if your melee weapon has a ranged ability) cause you need to be able to block, otherwise you’re gonna need to be babysitted by other players, which is quite annoying already

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Ability: On your feet cowards (Commissar) Allies within range get buffs to stats - allies leaving aoe lose toughness overtime.

That’s basically what the shout does, it’s a buffing tool, though not sure what you mean by “allies leaving aoe lose toughness overtime.”

Is the buff some sort of Over Toughness ? That could work, but honestly just make it a talent that the shout has.

[Tamren]

IMO they need to just give up on making veteran a melee class and focus on ranged buffing abilities at long/mid/short ranged bands. Stealth can be retained, but in the context of a shooting buff ala huntsman or ranger veteran in vt2.

Also they need to trim stat nodes from the veteran talent tree, he has way too many bulking up the tree and draining talent points just to get from A to B. The new veteran sucks somewhat overall because they took away everything he had before and only partially gave it back.

Also they need to put reload on ult and +toughness on ult back in as upgrades to volley fire.

[PantsRKing]

I know the Commissar table top ability to boost moral wouldn’t work for DT, which is why it was put in as a joke, and not added to the spread sheet
Real ability options are in there.

@Heretical_Cactus

You need to have a melee weapon (even if your melee weapon has a ranged ability) cause you need to be able to block

Blocking is not a much used mechanic in DT, giving up block to be able to use your ranged weapon in melee and is a real 40k tabletop ability.

@Heretical_Cactus

Weapons are animated by themselves, this would mean remaking all of the animations

Not sure how difficult this would be logistically - clearly they were happy to create entirely new animations for abilities like Assail. There are other possibilities, anything is better then “20% damage for 5 seconds”

@Heretical_Cactus

That’s basically what the shout does, it’s a buffing tool, though not sure what you mean by “allies leaving aoe lose toughness overtime.”

Currently the shout default only gives toughness, which to all classes but Vet is incredibly easy to refill. So things like reload bonuses, crit bonuses, increased damage to elites. Something beyond the most vanilla.

If you have played V2, think curse of comradery - so you get benefits being close the Commissar, but retreating will give you a penalty for being a coward (but only if you started in the aoe to begin with) So there is more to the ability then “press F all the time without thought”

[PantsRKing]

The point is to go beyond what the old Vet was (you can fix that over time with balance patches) and to give him options for new unique play style that would fit a Veteran. Currently 2/3s of his tree is a very bland “get stat” option which does nothing for enhancing veteran build options. Some of those options could absolutely be a free reload (and one of the skills I suggest is one)

Doing something like a Catachan hybrid that actually relies on doing both would certainly mix things up, while moving him away from the “I do melee, but I just suck more then zealot” options that currently exist.

[nemy123]

I don’t know what you guys are on about but the new tree allows the Vet to become an absolute powerhouse of a glass cannon.
The only thing out damaging the vet is psyker abusing the infinite smite bug.

Below is just one screenshot of an auric maelstrom run. All you need is the right build and blessing combo.

He doesn’t need fixing at all honestly. People need to get more creative

[PantsRKing]

@nemy123

The only thing out damaging the vet is psyker abusing the infinite smite bug.

This has little to do with Vet balance - and nothing about his ability to deal damage. I feel like you read the title, and instantly responded without reading anything I wrote.

@nemy123

He doesn’t need fixing at all honestly. People need to get more creative

All three of his Abilities (as previously stated) are very vanilla “get more damage and/or toughness” in an incredibly flat way - they don’t even bother to give damage via crit strike e.t.c. How do I get more creative with an ability that is literally “20% more damage for 5 seconds”

This isn’t like smite, Assail, Chorus, Indomitable e.t.c. all of which enable your character to do something new, broadening what the class is capable of. 30% close damage for 10 seconds certainly increases your damage, it doesn’t increase the number of playstyles that are viable for your class.

[PantsRKing]

@Heretical_Cactus

Just have the Commissar get something for killing Elites+, and then it’s not gonna be a tool used by Griefer.

Oh and I forgot to mention, this is specifically what I actually suggested outside of my jest listed at the bottom of the google doc. I do like this idea and think it is very viable for this kind of character/style.

[RTO]

@Tamren

Also they need to put reload on ult and +toughness on ult back in as upgrades to volley fire.

Not automatically but they should let us spec into reload on ult for Volley Fire that’s for sure!

[Heretical_Cactus]

@PantsRKing

Blocking is not a much used mechanic in DT, giving up block to be able to use your ranged weapon in melee and is a real 40k tabletop ability.

Not being able to block at all would mean you are dead in a melee, you can’t push for stagger and you can’t defend yourself

@PantsRKing

Not sure how difficult this would be logistically - clearly they were happy to create entirely new animations for abilities like Assail. There are other possibilities, anything is better then “20% damage for 5 seconds”

Making Assail is making 1 animation doing what you propose mean at max:

• 3 Ranged choices: Autopistol; Revolver Laspistol (+ any added weapons in the future)
• 14 Melee choices (Only too those available to Vet)

Meaning you have 42 permutations. While instead of doing what they did in VT2 where they had 1 (Though this time having more of this type of weapon kits) kit that is from base a Melee weapon + Ranged (With still having a block) which doesn’t involve the ranged weapon at all

[PantsRKing]

@Heretical_Cactus

Not being able to block at all would mean you are dead in a melee, you can’t push for stagger and you can’t defend yourself

You can go entire hordes with little to no push blocking. Specially after the buffs to so many horde clearing weapons you can light attack spam and dodge occasionally vs hordes with very little worry. A 5-10 second window where you are using both weapons would not be a serious issue once you get used to it.

Blocking in DT is nothing like V2, where enemies lived way longer and were more difficult to stagger - and there is much less block cost reduction/it is harder to get. Not to mention the huge stun anytime your block is broken.

It is possible the animation makes it untenable but it would be very cool if they could.