I agree with you, the new system will be good but not great.
But still Fatshark has listened to us and is willing to reach a meeting point on what community has being asked since the release.
I’m honestly surprised with how much negativity their efforts have been welcomed.
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After this many years and after I personally got burned by their itemization, we deserve more than just “good”, we deserve great. I want a system that is nearly perfect in terms of respecting player time whilst facilitating agency.
Consumer relations don’t just magically recover overnight especially when people have been burned this hard. Fatshark has been making progress in their communication initiative but they’ve still got a long way to go.
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I made a new poll including this question.
I tried to cover the most relevant questions in a way that leaves as little room for interpretation as possible.
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Thank you Flawless, you put it across far better than I could even after having my coffee.
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Flawless putting in work. God bless.
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‘Nintendo hard’ was a thing back in the day to extend gameplay. Padding out a game isn’t something that someone just thought of recently, they just are using different methods now then what they did 30 years ago.
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I see it very much in the same way as going on a diet/new year resolutions, the first week or two is easy, but ultimately pointless if you can’t make it into a more permanent lifestyle change.
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The saddest bit is that they’ll have an advisor specifically for guiding them on the horrid casino retention mechanics and you can bet any money that this conversation has happened:
“how do we know people are enjoying the RNG system?”
“well have you seen how much time people are spending in the hadron crafting area!? They can’t get enough of it!”
“oh yeah wow, alanytics are crazy”.
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I do. I was watching a video by Asmongold yesterday that made a very valid point in reference to endgame content while reviewing the 90% playerloss that HD2 has suffered, and that is this:
If you don’t have to grind for anything, and the gameplay loop is too similar, then you get the feeling that you’ve done everything already. You need to have something to work for, a sense of accomplishment.
I’m speaking in the context of what’s out now and available: endgame content should have some method of progression. It should not have an infinite power curve by dedication so that your weapon gets more powerful, but I do appreciate the notion of seeing people who choose to specialize and dedicate themselves to one particular discipline. Not only is their efficiency reflected in the weapon’s power, but their familiarity with it and the nuanced strategies for their discipline.
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Darktide’s depth and a source of replay-ability comes from finessing different builds to your liking, and overcoming challenges that are not guaranteed wins. Helldivers has the latter, but not as much of the former. I would consider this a great strength and differentiatior for Darktide over any other title I can think of.
This, this is the bane and boon of a loooot of games these days. It’s the source of many toxic and predatory design practices, but also material success and player retention. How much fulfillment should be sacrificed for the sake of grind?
There is a balance to be struck here, and it’s currently weighted more on the frustration than the fantasy side. The more you gate power, the more inherent inequality in your system. The more cosmetics you have to gate, perhaps the more you cannibalise your store profits. See the birth of the cosmetic battlepass (I wonder how that would go down in this community).
I can see the idea of the system in place now – infinitely working towards perfection. Unfortunately it comes at the cost of alienating new and old players alike.
3 Likes
great poll hope FS see’s this!
First and foremost, Asmongold is an MMO player, specifically a World of Warcraft enjoyer where grind is inherent, applying this mindset, this critique, to non-MMO games is foolish and lacks nuance of the subject matter. Not every game needs to have you grind on mundane crap so you can feel ‘accomplished’. To give an example, one of the worst experiences in Vermintide 2, for me, personally, was grinding for Reds. Once I finally got my Red loadout all set up I was finally able to experiment with different builds and enjoy the game without restrictions.
That sense of ‘accomplishment’ you’re talking about - I got that from beating the game’s hardest challenges and or doing optional challenges that took me weeks to beat; not from grinding to get Reds or grinding to unlock talents for all the characters.
^Defeating Nurgloth the Eternal on Twitch Cata on Tzeentchian Twins modifier, that was accomplishment.
Another memorable experience that instilled me with a sense of ‘accomplishment’ was beating this challenge on Cata:
^that took a lot of practice
The core of 'tide shouldn’t be predicated on design where you grind to get a loadout, where you grind to get a setup going, where you grind to get your talents so you can have fun; that type of design should only be reserved for MMOs. If there’s going to be any grind it needs to be focused exclusively on players beating hard challenges then being rewarded with exclusive rewards, such as:
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Absolutely on point, couldnt have said it better myself if i tried.
Beating the hardest difficulties is what vermintide/darktide is all about. Same as any other horde slaying game. Left 4 dead still has thousands of people playing and it has no rewards whatsoever. nor does it get any new content. People play it because the core gameplay is fun.
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I’d like to have some rewards and not just play to play.
DT and VT2 challenges were just gimmicky, and/or for coordinated teams, it wasn’t interesting, fun or rewarding, and once you complete it 1 time it’s all that. In DT they even reduced the requirements for the long term Penances, so those aren’t a thing now either.
As someone who mainly plays pugs, I find no interest in some stupidity to handicap myself with gray weapons or something.
Different kinds of people I guess. I wouldn’t find much enjoyment in speedrunning either, although I do like grinding in aRPGs and MMOs, or unlocking stuff in games like Vampire Survivors.
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If you’re going to ask my opinion through an open poll on why I like or dislike something, don’t bait me into a discussion with direct questions to defend against my points on why I like something. It’s very invalidating. Your points on why you like what you like are evident in the thread already.
If you dont want your views challenged and are not ready to defend them then dont post in the first place.
(sorry its a bit cold but what are you expecting when posting your view on a thread about discussing a subject?)
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If you’re not interested in articulating your point further in discussion, then why did you post.
And once you have everything unlocked, what then, do you stop and move on. Do you not continue playing for the sake of the gameplay, to continuously challenge yourself on the harder difficulties, to master the game’s mechanics. To engage in ever more difficult modifiers.
What’s there left once you get all these rewards?
The shorter it is to get to that end point where you can freely change loadouts, switch between builds, the better. The whole appeal of these games isn’t to jog on a neverending treadmill to chase some unattainable loot piece.
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Short answer: I’m gone. I’m actually gone at the point where I find no more enjoyable challenge or rewards to get that I actually find interesting/meaningful.
Longer version:
Difficulty for difficulty’s sake isn’t something I find enjoying. There can be fun in difficulty, but only if it’s balanced properly. Non the less, I was several times at the point where I considered the content available in game “mastered” and would have left numerous times if it wasn’t for rewards in game. Potentially better weapons, different weapons, farming penances that now mean nothing, etc…
This doesn’t mean that if there is (interesting) loot/grind left I’ll stay. There could be content drought, loot I’m not interested in, I might start to feel the game is boring etc.
I played a lot of VT2 and did leave several times when there was no “sane” mastery left to do or achievements (personal or in-game) that I’m interested in to be had. A new class, new weapon can only go so far, and only if I’m interested in it, otherwise I might not even try. I came back for cata, played it, maxed out all maps +tried build and some other stuff for a while then I left. Same with Chaos Wastes.
There is some game time (for me) after that, but not that much.
Just to give you an example:
I love Dark souls, and I did replay 2 and 3, and Bloodborne several times with different builds, but the only NG+ I played was for DS2 because that had actual extra content. On the other hand Sekiro I only played once, and wasn’t really interested in the “hardmode” non-perfect parry damages you stuff.
Even tho, I’m always staying away from cheese and summons to make the game more interesting and to challenge myself, I was never interested in doing no-hit runs or SL1 or similar challenges.
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Because articulating my point causes problems for people.
I have no problem responding.
It appears that others do have problems with me responding to them.
It was my impression that this thread was for asking what people felt about their views, not about discussing them or challenging people’s opinions. It’s my goal to stay on topic and simply let voices be heard, not get into discussions focused on nuanced parts of opinions and why or why not they may be valid to some or others when it’s an opinion anyway and can’t be validated or invalidated as opinions are intrinsically subjective to the holder of said opinions.