That’s fair and I may have just misread you. Your first sentence made it sound to me like you were responding to what I was saying. I now realise you probably meant to use it more as a segue to your own thought 
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so basically the deal is: if you want to play patch 12 vet you must buy the new class
lasgun vet is meaningless if compared to whatever psyker can do with staves right now
you missing the free reload gives you an extra magazine as a bonus
literally spitting in every single vet main face, but we got used to that, we actually start liking it
also because those who don’t gets shunned and made fun of for crying because vet’s crying
so you just want a shallow game where every class do the same exact thing just with different flavors
100% uptime on your ranged can and was balanced before the talent tree update: see all those psykers (like myself) who opted for a gun to have that extra punch when i needed rather than being consistent with a staff but without the ability of burst something down real quick
i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again untill the end of times:
the game allowed for more build variety BEFORE the talent tree update than later
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Nerfing pickpocket might straight up kill ranged desperado build.
Desperado got long cool down, which is not starting till ability deactivated, but there’s still a significant need to shoot non stop even without it. To regenerate stimm faster there’s also need to shoot non stop.
So if scum stop shooting in between desperado activity and switching to melee for ammo economy he becoming character whose melee is probably will be worst. It’s not veteran that be good at both. It’s not psyker that really got infinite ammo. It’s not arbites who ok at both. Not ogryn or zealot that are melee focused.
Desperado scum needs to have opportunity to never to never stop shooting.
Also from team perspective, If scum picks up ammo, then scum cutting ammo from others to kill hordes in order sustain high enough dps and not die. Things that others could do with melee more effective than desperado scum who uses melee for economy.
In clutch situations pickpocket needs to be ranged, because it’s unlikely that ranged build scum will be able to kill elite or special in melee without putting himself under way higher chance of death. Maybe some lucky dog will try to jump and he gets easy kill but if not, if it’s mostly armor, chances of win really slim.
And ammo can still end even with this, scum can be low on it, sees elite, but oh well, it’s way behind crowd of trash enemies and it’s something thick, then that’s over. I had one such moment.
But that’s rare, what is not rare is teammates cutting this “endless” supply of ammo. Same happens with some other talents, when either scums own dots or teammate kills steal something from him.
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That is not what I said, grow up
Somehow a 90% ranged AND 10% melee is “the exact same thing” as the rest?
I’m not saying the change should be exactly what I proposed, but I do say it needs to have melee a little more involved
I’m even willing to increase the ammo gained from it up to 50% ammo if you make it require 1 melee kill and below X% ammo
I see
I’m talking about 1 single talent tho
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Why is needing to swap to melee for that talent such a sticking point? It’s the ranged side of the tree, it should enable a ranged playstyle. You still have to swap weapons for a variety of situations. How does it make sense to make a talent more powerful by making the quality of life slightly worse? Getting one melee kill on an elite is nothing really difficult compared to doing the same thing with your ranged weapon.
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its the same rhetoric that removed my favorite class from the game, and that’s that, i’m talking from experience, i’ve seen that happening before my eyes, and it keeps happening, because of people like you, fatshark’s clear about this, its a community driven developed game
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Because if you can shoot 90% of the time your gun/staff can’t be extremely powerfull. Either way you will have your purgatus, plasma, old bolter magdumper.
The idea of dmg - ammo sustain ratio is obvious. The same with melee, you shouldn’t have effective clear, dmg, anti armor and mobility on one weapon, oh wait…
Another reason - gameplay complexity, if you have playstyles holding lmb and shoot braced auto for the whole run and being efficient what skill factor we can talk about?
Add here guns in DT has no recoil patterns you must learn or enemies hard to track.
But again, the same with melee, if you can rush through spamming knife heavy it’s a degeneration of gameplay depth.
Good gameplay - deccision making leads to button pushing. Current DT gameplay is heavy on braindead spam loop be it simplistic melee chains, nade-voc spam, purgatus cast-vent.
Darktide is also mostly awful at indirectly rewarding ranged or melee combat since the proc conditions for so many effects are too simple for the effect.
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Well that’s just the thing, I wouldn’t say any of Hive Scum’s ranged options really fit this bill. If they had a passive like Onslaught that let them mow through everything by stacking brittleness, then sure. But they don’t, so they suck at killing armor, and their single target DPS is not as good as other classes.
So their guns can be used 100% of the time to clear chaff enemies that every other class bullies without issue (and without ammo consumption).
You still have to move the crosshair over what you want to hit (aim), manage your reloads, and prioritize your targets. This game doesn’t really need a ton of skill expression in shooting, we aren’t shooting each other. We’re shooting AI that don’t care how they die.
It’s also a personal thing, I think the gunplay is punchy and satisfying, with great visual feedback and gore. That is enough for me to think a ranged playstyle is worth supporting. Ranged shouldn’t overpower melee, and this class’s ranged capabilities don’t do that. I do not feel oppressed to the point of being useless because Hive Scum can shoot a lot.
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Fatshark’s incompetence of making a playstyle not entirely reliant on 1 single talent is not “people wanting to take variety away”
It’s funny because if anything, having 1 talent node being the end all means there’s less build variety. This is the exact same argument that can be done for “For honour and duty” of Vet’s shout subnode
I don’t care about the rhetorics, the fact is that Fatshark failed to made it proper, and we can see it here being extremely overtuned and promoting unhealthy gameplay by absolutely NEVER being encouraged to take a risk
“Just stay behind and hold m1 with your autos! You can’t kill carapace so that means it’s good for the game!” only to then have them deal top damage and blame the team because they couldn’t support in moments of pure pressure
if anything, I think Desperado itself may need a buff (rending), but Pickpocket needs to not be this free in order to compensate
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Ah you’re right, nevermind, you have the facts and we don’t about what is proper and what should and should not be in this game. We should submit to your rhetoric without supplying our own as a discussion forum invites us to do.
“I don’t care about your opinions because my opinion is actually a fact.”
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you but if I’m not, this is not an entirely productive mindset to have.
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i dont like that we are obsessed by wanting to change things that works
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While innovation requires risk, it’s just ‘fascinating’ that Fatshark keeps throwing out the baby with the bathwater when reinventing the wheel but at the same time keeps making the exact same mistakes.
Nah I’m not saying “I have le facts”, but when the argument provided is “I’ll exagerate what you said to a point that it makes you look like You said something completely different, to induce a sense of fear of Fatshark killing this playstyle” it really is hard to argue that directly y’know, because it’s not really an argument IMO
It’s literally an SSS tier talent
It’s like saying Duty and Honour is a good thing because it works
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Good point, locking Psyker out of using their Staff for 10s after Warp Unbound effect ends - due to exhaustion of the Warp - seems reasonable.
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you shouldn’t be changing things that works, even if they are a bad thing, you’ll just end up making things worse if you judge talents and weapons individually
the whole context is important, that’s why fatshark is failing in the first place, they balance talents and weapons by pick rate ignoring their synergies with other talents, weapons and enemies
even your Duty and Honour example, it would be great if it wasn’t tied to voice of command
example: if you apply Duty and Honour to Exec stance, you would solve literally every issue veteran is having right now on his ranged tree
ofc it should only work on himself, it would make no sense that a non-shout ability affets allies
and it would still be meta to just bring voice of command so that you can just save your team mates from being bad at the game, but at least veteran sharpshooter would be back in the game
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While I’ve already stated above why I think this talent is just really boring in its design, I do think this is a valid point being raised.
For which guns/builds does this currently become problematic. @Vror I think identifying that is a pretty important facet of this argument. I think we can agree that ammo economy presents different problems depending on the gun. Being able to fire an inf Las infinitely vs firing a bolter infinitely well… one of those is obviously a big problem, the other is pretty debatable.
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Bigger clips is just a trap (+15% ammo is good for inf autogun, not stub pistol)
And i like the fact you can shoot all the time
I promess, once i see scoreboard with same numbers of psykers, i come back here to complain.
The dps, for the scum, are on thr melee part, unless i missed something
What pickpocket allows you is to spam your bullets. At the end, the result is the same on the scoreboard, far away of a psyker with soulblaze.
If itbis OP, then what is psyker?
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hear me out, i’ve already detached myself from hive scum cause I believe in the inevitable change for pickpocket. I genuinely don’t think desperado tree side should get more rend. Usually I’m all for some sort of buff, but rending turning the dual uzis into carapace efficient killers is not the way to go.
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