Penance Missions Should be Reworked/Renamed, as it promotes Uncooperative Behaviors

I do not know about everyone else’s opinion on Penance missions, but I do really think some Penance Missions need to be reworked to promote teamwork, and good cooperation. As I also do not like how you have to complete certain mission to unlock clothes/aesthetics. To begin, I do not like the word Penance, as a word to indicate that “it is supposed to be this way, as it is according to the theme”.

What I mean is; some penance missions promotes uncooperative-ness or making a player to perform less than ideal in a ‘team-based game’. I play mostly Zealot, so this is one of the example:

“Complete a mission of Heresy Threat or higher in under 10 minutes, with less than 1 Wound remaining for 75% of the time.”

“Complete a mission of Malice Threat without a single shot”

“Using a Stun Grenade, hit an enemy sniper more than 40 metres away.”

now I am complaining not because I can not complete the task, I am complaining because how such mission description means: a Zealot is going to tell the team that he will be handicapped, and being an annoyance/burden to the team. By doing so the Zealot will have to also tank insults, hates from other players, and by itself already promoting toxicity. And many players already complaining about bad teammates over many reasons that make no sense, and it is absolutely unnecessary to make people complain more about your game.

I like the ‘staying with the theme’ and all, but I think the ‘Penitence’ thing is way too much. I despise that I have to tank hates from random players, I despite that I have to limit myself into doing what I like in a mission. It is not fun, but I have to do it because of the importance of the reward.

Fatshark, you are making a game about coop play, as you once quoted “help each other out, it is a coop game”. It would be nice if the name ‘Penance’ is to be replaced to just ‘Challenges’, and not just any challenges, but missions that makes people learn new things about your game, or making people understand the mechanics of the game, or promotes the behavior of teamworking. As you clearly notice, not all new players know how the game should be played, they can not figure out by their own, please ease them with knowledges.

Since I do not have idea of what people think of Penance Mission, so what do you think?

  • Is this penance thing necessary? ‘Darktide’ , criminal redeeming sins for the Emprah and all?
  • what should the reward be otherwise, should Penance Mission remain?
  • How would it be better to get accessories/glamours other than from Penance Mission?
  • Should these challenges teach people on how to approach the game? Especially for higher difficulties? Rather than being handicaps?
  • or is it really just fine as is?

I agree, penance system needs work. How can FatShark claim to want to promote cooperative play, when penances clearly enforce toxic/uncooperative behavior.

I completed Up Close and Personal - and I honestly was a handicap to my team. It sucks not being able to help your team out when under blistering gunner fire. My only options were to toss a stun (which I usually had no grenades left), charge in and hope the ranged fire doesn’t stunlock me, or crouch and hide.

I failed 3 malice missions before I finally got it. After being able to used my ranged I rattled off 4 Malice wins. Any zealot trying to complete this is not a full teammate.

TLDR: Penances are doable, but promote toxicity and harms cooperative teamplay.

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In playing devil’s advocate, my only reasoning for the current state of many of the Penance achievements is that Fatshark assumes it’s going to be done by a group of friends that 1. knows what needs to be done and 2. is willing to potentially throw a match for the sake of a single character possibly getting the achievement.

Unfortunately, this has a very visceral affect on everyone else NOT playing with a group of friends - namely, you’re going to be involved in some fairly toxic behavior because someone really wants that Penance and the rest of the group isn’t willing to throw a match for a stranger or isn’t even aware of what the Penance they’re trying to achieve actually entails.

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Doesn’t the fact that you need to ask people to “throw the game” go against the spirit of cooperative behavior and teamwork?

They banned scoreboards because they say it promotes “green circle chasing” and “toxic noncooperative behavior”. Doesn’t this do the exact same thing? The scoreboard doesn’t reward you for being toxic. Penances do.

You were a jerk to your team and actively let them handle all the ranged enemies alone? Congrats! Here’s a shiny new chest piece. Whether it’s with friends or with randoms the behavior is uncooperative and toxic. Just because your friends consent to you being toxic, doesn’t mean you aren’t toxic.

It’s the same with ammo and health, really. I’ve been watching streamers steal ammo bags from their team, when realistically this just shouldn’t be an issue to begin with. DRG’s resupply system works extremely well, Vermintide 2 had ammo crates at regular intervals, a lot of these kinds of games will have checkpoints to restock in(like Left 4 Dead, or Sniper Elite). It seems pretty arbitrary and backwards to let people hog ammo and health from other players.

Speaking of DRG, what’s wrong with just having a cosmetic shop to spend coins on? Ghost Ship makes this look so effortless, and Vermintide 2 did have a cosmetic shop…they just barely supported it. There’s no need for penances in the first place, you could make a bunch of recolored pants and let people just buy them. I’m sure that’d add to the oh-so-important ‘player retention’ a live service game requires.

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I would say the same applies to heavyweight and the gone bowling.

I was playing devil’s advocate in trying to figure out why the system was designed the way it was, not agreeing with how it was done. :slight_smile:

Lets say I find your assumption of their reasoning is correct. They kind of want players to play with buddies, just so each missions can be done slightly easier.

Although let’s be honest here, do you think majority of players that buy this game actually have close buddies to play with, and in trust? And is Fatshark naively expect everyone to actually have friends to play with with similar game’s interest?

I assume majority players online always play solo, and enjoy solo in any form. In that, it could be the reason Fatshark is also considering making the game solo play with BOTs. And that… in my opinion, is not actually a solution for what you meantioned “visceral affect on everyone else NOT playing with a group of friends”

I am so fed up with trying to get Cliffhanger at this point. I even used a steam guide to find a good location, and convinced two groups of randos to wait with me until a horde showed up (which is a challenge for my social anxiety riddled ass), and still didn’t get it. The first time, one of the randos kept killing the horde and didn’t let them pile up; the second time, a trapper got me as I was trying to get into position and then the rest of the group went down shortly thereafter. I felt so bad about throwing that second game full of nice people who were just trying to help me that I haven’t tried again since.

All I want is a nice shirt that makes me look different from 95% of other Psykers I run into, FFS.


you see… I really do not mind if they make “Cosmetics” fully purchase-able ingame or outgame, as it is just misc that do not add any attributes. But I will absolutely mind if they make “Cosmetics” gained via ruining everyone else game by being a handicap.

in-game purchase-able being game’s lore related Cosmetics.
out-game/ real money ones to be more fancy/ flashy looking.

yea I feel bad for you too. Suppose that you completed the mission, that reward just meant nothing worthy of having, as one have to burden teammates to have that top piece. It is not a healthy frustration, …as if frustration ever healthy.