That’s fair. I view unnecessary damage that’s doesn’t achieve anything beyond lowering the amount of micro someone has to do as bad (like just lmb spamming into a horde mindlessly).
I think we may have some different views on the matter. I see hit trading for health and damage and managing the damage one takes by carefully reading incoming attacks from a horde as a skill. It’s all about damage efficiency.
Besides, there’s something quite awesome about the Zealot that feels nothing and just won’t die despite fighting 26 CWs by themselves with a Flail on FoW, even if they’re only tickling them.
So hit the charged damage. Remove the extra critical strike from the heavy and maybe take the head shot modifier down a bit. Now you actually have a nerf that’s worth something and makes GK:s 25 % even more interesting pick.
This is one easy one on top of my head without messing with the actual feel of the weapon.
I hardly see this point. So you are saying that the 10 % attack speed reduction is suddenly going to make greatsword shine even more? Until you actually massively buff geatswords numbers or one of the 2 weapons gets a massive rework then this topic is always going to stay relevant for discussion.
33 % of the run they are active yes i can get behind that number but is it active in those 9/10 times when you ACTUALLY require that extra attack speed to be online? Que the stupid examples from before like boss dancing, pulling a patrol, etc.
You are also not going to get that swift slaying in those situations if your base attack speed state is too slow to actually weave attacks in.
Guess what i should do is shove at stormvermin and chaos warriors to gain some extra attack speed without the added stagger talent or charge down 2-3 of them without the buffed charge talent.
Sure the option is there but if we go this route i’m asking why should i even bother with the Exe sword when i can pick something better and take some actual talents that matter in those bad sitsuations.
That would be noble if true. While sure builds and setups should always be considered for synergies i also believe that if you cannot make X weapon to work because your build has 0 synergy we have a problem. We don’t have to go any further than bardin and greataxe which for the longest time has only been usable by slayer properly. It generally says more about the careers power than actual weapons than anything else imo but ofc there are outliers like exe, axe/falch etc.
I’ve not seen any evidence of this honestly, though I’m happy to admit I could be wrong.
Pershing provided information that would make enemies come across as aggressive, not faster.
Entirely irrelevant considering weaves are working on a completely different baseline and cata 2-3 isn’t even live content. The top relevant difficulty is just base cata. DWONS chucking in a heap of enemies that are much harder to handle is not something that matters at all for the vast majority of peoples play, and you can’t balance weapons around user created content that only a couple dozen people even play.
Sure, but the AS from SS is more than double what we lost. Why is it impossible to fight 8.5% slower than normal peak, but not 20% slower than peak AS? What specifically about this decrease is so huge?
For Kruber I really enjoy the mace and sword and 2HH changes. Both weapons feel really good. The halberd I think still needs a little something. I like how the cleaves and single target attacks are now close together, but I feel like the cleave should deal more damage. I find myself getting overrun cleaving in hordes with the halberd where the exe, Mace and Sword, and 2hh i dont have that problem. I do wish the mace and sword dealt more boss damage. It deals virtually none and it should at least deal some lol. Im not so sure nerfing the exe sword was the right thing to do especially with the changes to the other weapons. Alternatively, if youre going to nerf it dont nerf atk speed because without the speed it makes it a lot harder to use on other careers besides merc. Exe sword is good but i dont think it should be nerfed because of its use %. Its just a really fun weapon to use and being really fun doesnt mean its op IMO.
Im not a fan of the block talents. They dotn really fit in this game or work. If youre standing there blocking you arent attacking and its never worth purposely blocking to get a small buff. So im not a fan of any of those talents.
Everything on Merc and GK i found to be pretty good. No complaints really. But footknight needs something LOL. Removing FK damage buff was bad. FK falls in this weird space in between merc and GK. FK doesnt really fill any role. He is less tanky than merc and has less utility. He also deals way less damage than GK. his charge can be good but unless you spec for invuln, you can get hit and die during your ult which is really bad. Removing his damage talent was also bad. If youre going for CC then just give GK a shield because he can block warpifre. So I feel like FK needs more damage or buffs that affect the party. Also keep in mind when you take a FK that means you cant have a merc GK or huntsman. I personally think huntsmen is underwhelming as well, but the important thing here is you cant take a high damage dealing boss killer, or a horde clearing healer if you take FK.
Buffs I would give FK are damage talents and party wide buffs. Like health or more damage like IB taunt. You could go a lot of different ways but dps is extremely important in this game Not to say CC isnt important but if you kill things fast enough you dont need CC. .
Finally, I dont play huntsmen very much anymore because of the long bow. Its a very unfun weapon IMO but I understand some people enjoy it. So if the long bow either didnt zoom at all or zoomed immediately OR you could toggle the zoom I would prob like the class a lot better. Also why do you have to trait the stealth on huntsmen ult? Seems like only lasting 6 seconds he should stealth automatically and you could trait it a different way. Anyway thats some of my feedback. Overally very positive changes IMO.
Please revert Bladedancer Talent for Handmaiden. No idea why you’d add instant revive when Handmaiden already has good revive with invis or block dash.
ive played them now and still dont see the point. if the idea was the reduce the gap between good and bad, what has that practically achieved ? i highly doubt you will see more elf 1H sword for example. so why give it a tiny boost, and nerf the others, when the others are still in a league of there own ?
i feel like they all got this wrong and have confused two things - mixing up the meta, with reducing the gap between strong and weak weapons. i think thats the fundamental issue with whats happening, its feels like a mess of arbitrary changes ((
The gap between good and bad was reduced? I don’t get the point of this question?
Top weapons were toned down a bit, a heap of lower tier weapons were buffed or reworked completely. It’s definitely not perfect and some are still pretty useless, but it’s definitely better than it was.
You could just go try playing Recruit and then Cata, it’s easy test as that. Someone actually made video before (don’t have link unfortunately) showing the same enemies and how quick they attack on all difficulties. The difference was huge.
Well I wanted to play Weaves, that is a live content, and it sucked. So it’s relevant.
Yea of course, I’m not asking them to balance around modded difficulties, but again Weaves are not modded realm.
You keep bringing in buffs, that’s irrelevant, those were there before also. The issue is when you don’t have them. To your question, yea sure it is playable fine now, if you give me the perma buffs on top of this nerf but that’s not happening.
Btw, played a bit yesterday checked some other changes to other weapons, ale those looked good like Spear, that weapon didn’t even need buff, it’s super mobile, long reach, decent damage. 2H Sword for Krub/Salz was trash, it got buffed in interesting way. Many changes look positive, I’m just saying they should not screw around with weapons that are already good and fun to play when they’re not properly testing them in high-difficulty official content.
I mean anyway overall, what’s your goal as designer… to make the game fun to play… I would hope.
Weaves don’t have the same baseline, why would you balance anything around them? They’re also intended as a challenge mode, making it even sillier to balance around them.
I think the changes to the weapon are fine in high difficulty official content. It’s slightly weaker, but that’s not proof that a nerf was an issue when making something slightly weaker is the point of nerfing it.
Making weapons have more pronounced weaknesses helps variety.
That is the end-game content, for quite some time now. Legend is easy, Cata is easy for experienced group of players also, so long time players play Weaves, that’s big part of why those were introduced I believe.
And you have to balance around end-game, since if things work there, they’ll be fine on lower difficulties as well. And also nobody would care if Mace and Sword for some reason dominated Recruit difficulty.
I’m just saying that I strongly believe it would be quite unwise to make currently good and fun weapon into weapon that feels like sh*t and people don’t want to use in end-game. That just makes no sense at all to me.
I like the idea of changing meta, but not at cost of destroying the old one at high level content.
And again Exec is not currently some uber OP weapon that every newb can take and solo Legend or fly thru Cata. It’s just what it is, it’s good and fun to play, it’s in good place, except for the inability to block.
If their goal is to make all weapons interesting picks for interesting situations and fun to play, then doing this to the Exec is pulling in exactly opposite direction = making the weapon feel like sh*t which will need further changes later when they realize people don’t like it anymore, while they can just leave it be and it’ll be fine. And they can focus first on fixing other weapons ,there is plenty of crappy/useless ones that people don’t play.
We’re running circles here, it’s not slightly weaker if you suddenly can’t attack in huge amount of situations. If you do 10% attack speed nerf to dual daggers, it will be slighter weaker, but you can still attack kinda in all situations, you just lost dps, similar theme goes for many other weapons, but not for Exec and high weaves.
Also to put this in different, perhaps easier to grasp way. If your attack takes 1000ms to land and you have 1200ms attack window, that gives you 200ms to react, now if you add 85ms on top of the 1000ms, which is “only slight nerf”, it is certainly not slight if you look at it from perspective that now you only have 115ms to react in this scenario which is 42.5 % smaller window. I don’t have the exact numbers, but THIS (MUCH WORSE), is very much how it feels in high weaves. Which is why I’m complaining about it.
I didn’t play it on normal Cata, but I would guess one will be able to feel the nerf a lot there also. Legend was fine, but Legend…
And if it’s barely play-able on normal Cata but it just sucks, the feel is bad, which it certainly does, then people won’t play it much, I certainly won’t if they keep the nerf and it’s like my most played weapon of em all. I will just take something else that was fine before also like Halberd or S&M.
I feel like I’ve said this several times now, but weaves don’t function on the same baseline. They have different power, entirely different challenges, massively different spawning behaviour, they’re not at all something the game should be balanced around.
Cool, you’ll be happy to hear that it’s still absolutely fine on cata then.
Also, a 200ms window is so small that you’d just not be able to do it at all. You’d need a pretty exceptionally fast reaction speed to pull it off even on pretty decent ping. Most people wouldn’t be able to react to that in time even as host while paying 100% perfect attention to nothing but that attack window. It’s not a reasonable comparison at all.
It is a core game mode, highest difficulty, therefore it needs to be balanced around, it also has QP.
I don’t see how this argument makes sense, saying that weaves are different so it should not be considered when doing balancing.
Example… it was an example sir It also depends on what attack we would talk about.
It isn’t 200 for all attacks, but when you add up everything including latency and avg. player response time it might be around that number for many attacks, probably 0 or less for some really quick attacks, where you just can’t do heavies at all.
HP conversion to ult is an amazing change to Unchained! All the frustration and cheapness of dying to super fast spike overheat from gasrats, monks, friendly fire and little hits from the back are gone! Also make the healing talent better because you dont feel like you have to keep your ult to save yourself and can use it to heal the team. Great stuff!
It is backwards. Weapons shouldnt be balaned around Weaves. Weaves are balanced around weapons. They also have a different approach. Quickplay Weaves are a bit of an oddity but the ranked Weaves are composed in a manner that for some Weaves weapon x is not recommandable while for other Weaves weapon y is not recommanded.
Added on that is that weapons in the Weaves are more powerful since you have a Hero Power of 900 and more properties (depending on what you chose). As such you can’t directly compare Weaves with normal Cataclysm.
So you’re saying that they should also re-balance Weaves while balancing weapons ? That’s obviously no-go from what we’ve seen in past.
Ehm, not really, there were some exceptions, but mostly no. Even in that S1 insanity, we did it with kinda same weapon sets, just switched hero here and there when it was needed.
That is also irrelevant in this topic since you could have 9000 hero power, but if you can’t do the swing properly, it doesn’t matter.
Didnt say it is impossible. Said it is not recommanded. Of course, we have the super-meta weapons which can solve about any problem. Which is exactly what should be tackled. If a weapon for example has a really devastatingly strong single target damage attack like the pickaxe then this attack should be appropriately slow.
No, I say they will consider the weapons strength for making new weaves each season. The balancing for Season 2 and 3 has been adjusted accordingly on the feedback of previous Seasons.
Then this whole discussion is irrelevant because you can swing the Executioner properly. Have tried it several times on Cataclysm Foot Knight just to be sure. I can’t test properly in high level Weaves as I don’t have a premade team. However, enemies react about 13 % faster in Weaves (react, not move). As such if you move before they see you, there is no difference. If they get pushed, blocked, etc. there is no difference. The weapon has a large reach which can be used in case that reaction time might be an issue. But unless I see a video of a person rocking a Weave with Executioner on live and than getting devastated (without obviously playing bad) on BBB, I will just ignore this claim.
Just let this tiny nerf go live and I promise you that the weapon will not be left in the dust like the Halberd example people use. Let this weapon have a proper weakness. It deserves it.
Well pickaxe is completely useless for Weaves or any high level difficulties, so in my eyes, that weapon needs to get tweaked, since so far it wasn’t being played much as far as I know. That’s not something I would point to with “see… this is how it should work”.
The previous model that FS was pushing, was hey there is the Season and we won’t be making any big changes during that. I remember that one very well, so maybe I didn’t get the memo about how that approach switched completely to who gives a fu- let’s do lot of big changes and not care what the effect on Weaves going to be. But even if that’s the way now, I don’t think it’s good idea to make S4 slower, because of the nerfs in this beta, that’s just getting more and more chaotic.
Instead of just balancing up the crappy weapons that need it, so those are also fun and compete with current meta.
What they should have started doing literally year ago is do many smaller changes (like every month) and see how it shapes the meta. Till there is some decent balance point. What we got instead was throwing the balance out of the window with arrival of WoM, chaos that the game did not recover from since… and now I see significant nerfs to beloved weapons like Exec, that’s just sad to see.
Well just engage Cata Vermin patrol, you don’t need to do weaves and imagine they attack 20% or something faster. That should give you an idea what I’m talking about.
I got like hundred hours of footage me playing Exec, which includes S1 weaves - Exec didn’t change since that time. And now I was playing like W60 so nothing super hard and it was just horrible, while few days before (non-beta) I was doing 10 weaves an evening, no big problems with same setup on GK.
So … like sure, believe what you want, I’m not sure why you would think I’m lying or something.
Not sure what this means, Halberd was and still is very solid. Some time before they just screwed up the timing on attacks, which were super inconsistent with some weird delays and it took like 4 patches to fix, aside from that the weapon is strong.
Today there was an update to the beta game but the update notes from steam shows only this general bbb link and there is no link to the changes.
Anyway it’s impossible getting here from the bbb forum as well.
Suggested topics shows outdated links to old, 2.xxx patches.
Some good, but not sufficient (hello bardins dual axes).
Some replace bad talents with another bar talents (bardin’s ale)
But some are plain bad:
removal of crit on kerillian’s dual daggers & sword and dagger is just a straight nerf to shade. These are weapons without armor-piercing on light attacks and without good splash. And without any reach. And you are not a boosted grail knight (a tank with more damage), so any small mistake is punishing you a LOT.
And noone but shade really cares about these 2 weapons (because you either rely heavily on range for clear, or can afford amazing kerillian’s spear.
This is stupid and shouldn’t be.
In general, trying to reduce pick rate of popular weapons with nerf is a wrong angle of approach: they are popular for a reason, and one of these reasons is how they perform regardless of what you have in your party. It’s niche weapons that must be improved to be more versatile, not popular being made worse.
Im speaking from about 550hrs in-game, mainly legend.
but that’s not happening.
It also depends on what attack we would talk about.
and imagine they attack 20% or something faster. That should give you an idea what I’m talking about.