Seems a bit unfair? The main “issue” from bleeds is the uncanny strike interaction and infinite vet frags isn’t it?
Slam is definitely one of those underestimated picks. Most builds end up taking it anyway, but its value is far higher than what it seems at first glance.
Maybe but I still really don’t like it and think it’s ultimately unhealthy for the game, such interactions just makes it worse
Serrated blade is a good pick if you’re running the knife since you get to activate the finesse damage bonus vs bleeding players without using a second blessing slot.
Thank you, I think I get it now; Bleed is bad because it removes meaningful choice from the player by making all weapons perform similarly.
Well we seem to have a lot of things converging as other and OP have pointed out, a bit too much AS which means a bit too many bleeds (without Rending and likely less Brittle), and too much tuf replenishment largely due to Confident Strikes being too much now because of top nodes replenishing on light?
I’m guessing if it were eventually going to be part of a nerf-all Big Balance Beta you’d take a bit off the top from AS as OP suggested? As others have mentioned, Confident Strikes probably doesn’t make sense anymore? I don’t really see why bleeds themselves would need to go
IDK, regardless it still kinda feels silly to put focus on bleeds as far as “OP Ogryn Changes”, seems like the main culprit is Conf Strikes?
I always meant to write a scoreboard plugin to track separate dot damage way back when but didn’t care enough. Doesn’t PowerDI do this for dots?
You can always run it and see what the average bleed damage contribution is.
P.S. If eventually during a Big Balance Beta it’s looked at , limiting bleeds to 1 stack on light attacks could also be a thing as I’m sure others have mentioned.
Not sure if I responded to the right comment earlier, but I think I get what you’re saying now; Bleed is bad because it takes meaningful decisions away from the player by making all melee weapons perform similarly.
Honestly, the keystone upgrade Just Getting Started doesn’t even need to exist. The attack speed stacking has too many unbalanced interactions and if it was removed players would just have 1 more skill point to spend on the many other good talents that aren’t as problematic.
Confident Strikes is also just too much now. Nerf it to 5% or maybe even just remove it from cleavers.
Bleed is fine by itself i’d say. I think damage over time effects in general shouldn’t benefit from rending. Maybe brittle is fine since it has a cap, but rending with burns is just stupid. Rending is stupid.
Can’t really argue with you or others or most points made, but just for my own ~sanity I’d like to point out that it is attached to a keystone and has a condition; for the sake of a global balance pass I’m sure it could vanish and it would be OK. Realistically It could be replaced now and I’m sure it would be OK but maybe I’m looking at it from a different perspective and being unfair comparing only newgryn to oldgryn?
I think maybe too many of us here fall into this category:
and is perhaps coloring our opinions some.
Was ogryn objectively weaker than zealot and vet and had a lower skill ceiling? Yes…and still here we are trying to nerf him again lol.
And for those in the cheap seats, I don’t feel we should need to repeat it but then again maybe we do, all things being equal nerfs targeting ogryn only don’t need to be a thing again. IDK why but it makes me a bit nervous. All this despite the fact that FS was a bit overly generous with some reworks, more than what many of us were hoping for, but this also sets the table for global balancing (yes, I know I’m repeating msyelf some more)
P.S. Maybe OP and some of you guys can run PowerDI and let us know what % bleeds contribute?
P.P.S. With bleed contributions with and without counting trash.
maybe i’m sleep deprived from all the meds they shot me yesterday but isnt there a pattern in all this?
ogryn perceived as weakest class → gets buffed
(overdone maybe)
people find stuff thats “out of line” when in fact other classes got similar outliers for months now.
ask for nerf of ogryn outliers —> every class gets
“trimmed” down 
i mean i’m fine with getting the game back to balance but then look at every “cheap mechanic” and demand the same performance level from every participant and not have retirement classes that can keyboard face roll havoc by popping a talent/ult
so maybe its “bleeding for awareness” now cause in “their class” peeps got “betriebsblind”? 
Not replying to anyone in particular here, but regarding attack speed stacking, I guess I’m kinda biased because I think +attack speed just feels good to play and some of the slower weapons (eg thunder hammer) just don’t feel very good to play without it.
It’s hard for me to feel like current attack speed stacking on Ogryn is overpowered. Back in VT2 you could get 20% attack speed from a single weapon blessing. Yes it was an unbalanced blessing but a lot of other things played into that, like the fact you got some cooldown back every time you hit an enemy in that game (the amount being determined by class).
I do think there’s something else here related that VT2 did right. It gave you attack speed as a weapon perk as competition for power vs perks, which at least gave you another choice, so that slot wasn’t exclusively reserved for trying to hit elite breakpoints.
If they were to tone down attack speed bonuses from tree, I would love to see this brought back so we could trade some damage vs to get that attack speed back. With how strong damage vs is in this game you’d probably have to offer ballpark +10% attack speed as a weapon perk for it to be competitive.
This would achieve an overall lower power level (assuming there are tree attack speed nerfs as has been suggested) while still letting players build for the amount of attack speed that feels good to them.
Really I suspect soulblaze to be the reason why psykers often do 50% to 100% more damages than others. And yes, they need to be skilled, and no this is not CAUSE they are skilled that they deal an amount of damages that no other class can do.
However, about debate blood / soulblaze. I think that blood is correctly managed in the game. Not useless, not too strong. And lot of interactions between 3 classes (vet, zealot, ogryn).
And yes, if there are a lot of zealot that go ogryn that easy to understand. The changes, especially the one about cleave, have made the ogryn a death machine.
This is a little too much… however I would point that, as always, things are different if we talk about a cleaver or if we consider pickaxes…
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