after testing the enhanced Ogryn for a while, it’s clear that the Heavy Hitter build is overtuned and needs to be nerfed.
1. Bleeding
currently, light attacks apply +2 Bleeding, which should obviously be removed. even when using a weapon that is inefficient against certain enemy types, simply spamming light attacks can easily wipe out large groups of enemies.
this game has a cleave mechanic, where attack damage decreases after hitting multiple enemies. but, Bleeding ignores this mechanic, applying the same number of stacks to all enemies hit, which makes the system fundamentally broken. either this mechanic needs to be fixed, or Bleeding should be restricted to heavy attacks only.
2. Attack Speed
Frenzied Blow grants 2.5% attack speed per chain attack stack, up to 5 stacks (maximum 12.5%).
Just Getting Started grants 10% attack speed at 8 Heavy Hitter stacks.
Since Heavy Hitter stacks last 7.5 seconds, as long as you don’t miss, you can maintain a total of 22.5% attack speed, which is clearly too fast.
this completely eliminates the main drawback of slow but high-damage weapons like the Pickaxe, and allows Great Cleaver to achieve absurd DPS with infinite cleave and Bleeding.
Suggested Changes:
Frenzied Blow: 1.5% attack speed per chain attack stack, up to 5 stacks (maximum 7.5%).
Just Getting Started: 8% attack speed at 8 Heavy Hitter stacks.
I haven’t tested Feel No Pain and Burst Limiter Override yet, so if anyone has feedback on those, please share your thoughts.
Heavy Hitter was always the strongest Ogryn option though.
I never understood why some people glaze Feel no Pain, it feels kinda weak even now.
Maybe my playstyle is too aggressive for Feel no Pain, but I feel like I get better survivability from Heavy Hitter.
The should buff talents like Towering Presence, Lynchpin, Furious, Unbreakable and Simple Minded. I don’t think there are situations in the game where they are worth it.
Also you don’t need Concentrate. It’s such a trap talent. I have stability as dump stat on Heavy Stubber, and I still land one-hit kill headshots on most specials and gunners without this talent. 60% sway reduction sounds crazy, in actuality it’s nothing. You can recoil control just fine with every weapon.
that’s true. i can see your point.
I’ve also leveled my Ogryn past 1200, and even before the buffs, I never once thought he was weak. I’ve clutched HISTG runs multiple times using Ogryn as well.
but the reality is that most players lack the skill to properly block, push, or dodge, and they don’t even think about things like what the most efficient combo for taking down a single target is.
Mem may be a bit fuzzy, but the older old FNP was nice when the picks were introduced (prior to rework). You could take a Karl pick and cut down on a lot of damage taken while maintaining good damage output with it.
FNP was also reachable by gunlugger since unlucky bullet sucked, and the intermediate rework was also meh till recently.
Feels like such a small percentage of players would actually be able to use Ogryn to the level that this becomes an issue, that it’s not really an issue?
I have no stats on this but just a hunch based off witnessing many people playing as Ogryn.
The other archetypes are so OP that nerfing Ogryn should come after their nerfs tbh. The big guy has barely had anytime with his new upgrades.
And not forgetting that to choose those nodes you mention all together then others must be sacrificed.
Light attack moving to 1 stack of bleed wouldn’t be unreasonable though tbh.
I will just say it amuses me, greatly, that just week / two week ago there was this raging sentiment everywhere that new Ogryn rework is bad, makes him still worst class, and people were mocking his 10% Attack Speed Talents by comparing it to the other class Attack speed buffs that have no conditions whatsoever to upkeep or maintain. There was a big piling on how baaad Oggy still gonna be.
Then lots of folks also predicted that soon after the update lands the narrative will change and we’ll see posts calling for his nerfing because ‘he too op now’.
It’s just… nice to see how predictable the community can be
Um… so you think it’s funny some people thought it was going to be Underpowered and another group thought it would Overpowered and obvious reactions are predictable?
I mean you basically cover all options in your statement not much of a prediction…
I mean Zealot has it on auto crit, Veteran has it on melee hit… doesn’t seem unreasonable to me Ogryn has superior thing in one area… and its just bleeding which is mostly for DR talent and finishing off the weak ones.
Zealot has many more and similar attack speed boosts in its tree… don’t see why this is suddenly an issue for Ogryn with generally slower weapons, movement and more conditions.
Disagree on your solutions. I also dont think it is such a problem as you make it seem.
It would be better to look at the damage profiles but it would be even better to Wait for the other classes balance patches and from that point look at the outliners., and then slowly balance it that most things are on the same level.
Funny how Bleed is allways seen as OP.
But Soulblaze is fine, dont mind it that it even spread from dying enemies onto the next one with 1 stack less or can be apply far away with Brainburst or just even an elite dying in the back.
Buuuut nooo… Bleed that someone has to apply themself with melee by getting close to enemies is OP.
Ogy cant have anything i guess.
The VERY old Bleed was busted, you could even apply with just bashing on the Bulwarks shields.
Ye that was busted but it was for all Classes, Vet nades, Zealots melee and Ogy Melee.
This has always been the case, no? All 4 operators were plenty viable at launch, and post patch 13. They were viable into Auric and Maelstroms and now Havoc.
But the problem here is that they’re viable to us. The toppish foppish percentile that have been playing regularly and posting regularly and generally being waaaay more invested in the game and “Getting Gud” compared to the average player. I can only assume the gulf of skill so great that the average/below average player does not find these operators/weapons viable. That or they’re simply unpopular and there’s no way to distinguish with usage metrics alone whether something is weak or niche or just boring relative to other options.
As since FS is reluctant to nerf popular stuff, buffing unpopular stuff even if they don’t need it is the only option.
Of course, this is rampant conspiracy and speculation because fatshark WON’T SHARE THEIR METRICS. I expect if they did I’d be humbled. Learn that 20% still play on sedition or some other shocking revelation.
The underlying issue is we’re trying to balance a fixed amount (+2 bleed per attack) with a variable rate (X attack per second).
Every perk that adds per attack, it’s going to scale differently with faster weapons.
Unfortunately, the way to balance this is to make then both rates. The effect needs to charge up at a rate, and then discharge on attack.
For example, bleed stacks.
Every 0.5 seconds player gain 1 stack of NEW_CAUSE_BLEED_BUFF up to a max of 5 stacks. On a successful attack, discharge all stacks of NEW_CAUSE_BLEED_BUFF and add 1 stack of bleed to each enemy hit for each stack of NEW_CAUSE_BLEED_BUFF discharged.
This way, if you have a crazy fast attack speed or a slow attack speed, you’re still just applying 5 stacks of bleed every 2.5 seconds.
I feel one OR the other should be hit on the heavy hitter side if you’re gonna do anything, not both. Either drop down the attack speed to ‘more reasonable levels’ so as to make it so each hit needs to matter, and leave the bleed alone. Or drop down the bleed to 1 stack on light attack, and leave the attack speed as is.
I feel hitting both just starts to revert the class back to ‘pre nerf numbers’, which wasn’t the point of the rework. The point was to ‘bring them up to the rest of the classes power level’, and it VERY much has and then some, so I seen no reason to hit them to hard unless, like the other comments have said, the rest of the classes get their outliers hit in the same breath.
Feel No Pain tree feels the most balanced to me, you’re just a gigga tank. I mainly have a havoc build that uses it right now (as having the toughness regen/auto push + the extra DR against shooters is nice, and you can make up the damage a pretty decent amount while still cleaving everything), feels super strong when used right/getting your pushes in and keeping your stacks high, but you aren’t 1 shotting everything so even with spreading bleed everywhere you’re mostly just ‘outliving everything’ verses killing it fast. So everything in that tree has felt exactly like the fantasy it’s supposed to to me (especially the Brittle on push that’s so nice), and the only thing I’d look at is honestly buffs to Get Stuck in (give it it’s old 6s duration back, I literally never take it as you never get to use it enough regardless of what build you’re using for it to matter over other ‘always on’ talents), and Simple Minded (just cause you’re never taking that like ever, maybe give it the ‘+5-10% health’ pip back to lean into what it wants to do while giving people that miss that the talent back?).
Lucky Bullet makes me so happy, I think it’s a little nutz for rumbler specifically but I kinda don’t care? Everything’s locked behind ranged kills so you usually have to spend ammo to get a benefit, and as stated about the only thing that ‘breaks it’ is rumbler atm. Everything else just ‘functions really good’ with it and everything else on that side of the tree, and I think the only thing I’d do would once again be little buffs. ‘Heat of Battle’ I feel should increase the chance for lucky bullet to proc per stack (fire rate is actually just terrible and makes you waste bullets, but if you also got more bullets for free it would let you take it with the stubbers it’s meant for and actually not feel bad). And I’d maybe buff Massacre to 2% since it’s the only crit talent they have and it’s still just not worth it ever, even with Lucky Strike being after it. But beyond that, it just does as the middle tree does, makes you feel like a Reaper and makes you not tax ammo nearly as heavily as you used to, and that feels super nice. Even lets you super buff your Psykers/Veterans too! : D (increased ranged damage for everyone! He truly does bring presensts for all!)
did a fun-ey sah