Ok, I stand corrected on this one, but it still prevents attacks from recoiling back from carapace from maulers and ragers in mixed hordes, at least when I last tried this “awesome” cleaver build.
And people claim that cleavers are “best” because of this garbage lmao
I don’t think anyone is making the argument that these loadouts beat the tried and trues, only that they’re worth checking out. Especially cleaver, for a middle-tier weapon it actually has a lot of unique attributes. Like not moving like a karking slug as ogryn, I love it for that alone.
Unfortunately it can’t give you cleave on the best elite killing moves, so while its cool I don’t think its totally broken to where it should be nerfed to do less. I basically have only ever ran it in scab maelstrom or the old rotten armor as it is.
For the record, Unstoppable Force is absolutely goated and nearly mandatory on any cleave weapon that can run it. Without it, Vanguards, Scab Ragers, Maulers, Bulwarks, and Crushers just completely kill your ability to leverage the weapon’s strengths. With it, you can cleave all of that without really giving a damn.
It’s a very powerful blessing people sleep on really hard, because they don’t understand what it does or what the value proposition is (which is understandable since the stated effects in the tooltip are genuinely pretty bad and rarely worth using). It’s immediately noticeable not having it after you’ve used it for a bit though, and the loss feels awful.
None of the best elite killing moves, aka strikedowns, cleave, not sure what you mean. Cleavers heavy sweep actually have the highest base cleave of any ogryn weapon apart from shield H2, not hitting enough is not the issue.
It is when Carapace is in the way
I know you just post to reply to other people but I literally posted the move graph above, for strikedown lights this is aggressive cleave to where hitting 2 elite enemies is a possibility, not outside the realm of a cleaving weapon. I don’t even understand how you could look at something called the cleaver and tell me with a straight face it wasn’t built to cleave. Its what it does best, all moves are very high in cleave some even approaching what light weapons get for their crowd clears despite being single target and 0.6 carapace ADM. The unique overhead strikedown Mk6 has for L1 and push attack is 7.6 cleave, basically a sword attack disguised with mid screen coverage.
you get cleave on the cleaving heavy that already barely outdamages a light with significantly worse frame data, that can already cleave 3 maulers without great cleaver keystone. you can only cleave a scab rager on a bodyshot with the strikedown heavy vs not running it at all, without doing the full charge heavy. you just have to avoid hitting the part of the body that aborts cleave, you can knock down waves of scab ragers, bulwarks shield is considered out the way when you throw him down, shields you can just swipe over because ogryn big. telling me the strength of the cleaver is that you could spam the cleaving heavy makes me deeply sad that a lot of the weapon design goes totally ignored in this game. super tight combo game and actually good frame data for ogryn, but no heavy attack me heavy attack. but when ogryns were literally spammed like horde enemies, this was very good on rotten armor.
The strikedown heavy on the cleavers has like no cleave and isn’t meant to hit multiple targets in the first place.
You run UF because it lets you cleave through shields and carapace and so on because you can easily cleave through 6ish H40 Crushers and the like, in terms of hitmass, but without UF it stops on the first carapace target and you can’t realistically aim to miss the every different carapace element on the same swing between vanguards being on a shield, ragers on the torso, and maulers on the head.
Notice how it got whittled down from necessary to one clump of one breed of enemy, which doesn’t happen more than like 3 times a round even on H40? Like I said before there’s no problem having options, but some people would rather prepare for the majority of fights than hyper specialize on a niche situation. Its also useless a lot of the time in situations where I mock up fights, like I literally get the same result as to running no blessing without specifically throwing crushers into the picture…please try it yourself. In fact I’d say the opposite, its really hard to use this blessing optimally without steering into the bad hitzones…
IMO this is a gamewide problem, skullcrusher is disgustingly amazing
it’s not surprising though when you try teaching ogryns about finesse. ogryn just smacks them harder.
If you can’t see the value in being able to hit things, like say the trapper gearing up to blast you, behind the bulwark parked in your face, or being able to face a mauler, scab rager, vanguard, bulwark, and a bunch of poxwalkers, and be able to hit all of them with a single swing, rather than however many before the twisting mass of moving bodies puts any cleavestop in the path of your weapon, there’s not much point in continuing.
Suffice it to say, there’s a ton of value to be had in being able to ignore cleavestop on demand, and if you take it into an actual game you’ll notice the different pretty much immediately the first time you get pressured by armor balls.
It’s to the point any weapon without it actively feels pretty bad to use, just because of how much control you lose whenever shields or armor show up.
Like I said I tried doing that already, giving no blessing vs unstoppable force and 90% of the time you aren’t hitting the cleave stop without tossing ogryns plural in, which you have abundant means of either staggering or throwing to the ground or blocking their moves. If you don’t notice not having an actual blessing in the slot, then sure go right ahead. If you’ve done it both ways you’d know I’m right here, like why would you just aim for a carapace helmet or scab rager’s body to nullify your sweep? In game you hit them and many other enemies irrespective of this property because it has 30 friggin cleave, unless you get to fight multiple of the round’s 40 something ogryn enemies at the same time (because you can always cleave into and until these enemies). Which you already had abundant answers for anyway, like c’mon.
It had its time when you had to deal with basically mob levels of those guys, but seeing x20 of them on a havoc 40 end report these days I’m really not going to run a blessing for that situation of them massing outside that in a boss patrol call. I also literally never said it had no value, lots of people seem very all or nothing on this forum. I am of the opinion that you can play the game with options, that’s why they’re there. I just think it went down in value hugely as a blessing considering it isn’t even on something with a relatively armor agnostic attack when doing so. Use the cleaver to spam stagger and moves, we are free to without crushers standing in between every 4th enemy on screen.
You don’t. But it’s generally not possible to aim for the mauler’s torso, the rager’s head, the Bulwark’s back, and the Vanguard’s head in the same attack. The blessing doesn’t do a huge amount for you against the first target, except allowing you to hit things behind a bulwark that’s in your face and cleaving through crushers (which on its own is pretty substantial value, but it’s reasonably situational). It’s about the second, third, fourth target that you’re able to cleave and then keep cleaving that drives the largest and most consistent value proposition for it.
Except the whole point is it doesn’t matter how much cleave you have; your weapon stops on carapace. And when you’re in mixed horde, you can’t avoid the carapace heads and the shields and the torsos and the shoulders; in havoc, you’re going hit to carapace and cleavestop somewhere in the swing. It doesn’t matter how good your aim, any enemy composition that isn’t a naked horde or a pure dreg rager ball is going to have cleavestop mixed in, and as long as there’s more than one, UF is going to offer a lot of value in being able to cleave all of it instead of just the first one, maybe two if you get lucky with alignment.
I’ve played extensively both with and without UF in play, and the difference in damage and especially control is immediately noticeable. If you rarely to never use heavy attacks for clearing packs of enemies, then yeah, you’re not going to get much value out of it, but that’s dumb on Ogryn of all things, especially with the Cleavers where no matter the mark, the horde clear combo involves at least one lightly diagonal sweep heavy that loops into either a flat sweep light or another lightly diagonal sweep heavy.
Trying to play without it, you immediately notice how you’re only hitting a handful of targets, instead of the vast majority of the crap in arms’ reach of you, and your damage output also tanks as a direct result of that.
It’s actually kinda frustrating how good it is. Part of me wants FS to make “ignore cleavestop” an intrinsic part of the weapon, because it would be an interesting way to buff them (and mostly to free up the blessing slot, being totally honest).
Like I said I ain’t gonna disagree it doesn’t have its uses, I think ogryn’s a little more spoiled for choice than you’re letting on though. When I was putting it through the paces, heavy spam didn’t provide any noticeably huge advantage to clearing. I even did a dilligent one being as fair to unstoppable force as possible and only spamming heavies on Mk6. Unless I willed myself to swing high, I would not clear the maulers any faster. Unless I desired to hit shield enemies instead of just killing them out of the group the fastest, it would not be faster. It’d basically just be me trying to fight my urge to play properly to get any value on it at all, like a cleave through carapace is bubkus damage, very easily avoided already and if a bulwark is up that’s your focus and so effortless to stagger (you can even punch the shield if you hit them right as they initiate a move and they haven’t been staggered recently, as if it wasn’t turbo easy to hit around them as ogg). Its extremely specific to the scenario of having multiple ogryns in your grill and no ult available, which with ‘bruiser’ being everyone’s kills/go again, isn’t really unheard of in game…its not like you get spammed with ogryns, even on rotten armor anymore. Meanwhile in the opposite direction there are several combinations of things I notice not having. Like on Mk6 cleaver, that push provided heavy with significantly better frame data than bull butcher’s and like 10% extra damage (very significant when all your damage comes from raw boosts and no finesse) makes me want thrust, and notice not having tenderizer (which assuages how slow it combos out of moves). I mean I’m still going to do the majority of man-sized elite CC just throwing a push, and then using the combos to sit there and wait to throw out more pushes or punches, so I don’t see where the ‘this is totally 100% mandatory’ entered the room ever. I have never gotten on poorly without it, it starts to feel really poor man’s pick spamming big cleavy strikes that can cleave armor hit stop and often don’t need to/shouldn’t because the elites that get cleaved by the knife get wrecked to their flak hitzone.