Ogryn is kinda Broken

[Mayson]

@FASAStampede

Sah, the shouties know, crunch em!

[FASAStampede]

Das alrite, pal! It’ll take another 6 months to come around to Rippers…
In this time - please subscribe to Reddit posts about how ogryn can’t deal damage, how you should stack wounds/toughness and how shield is meta…

We need more buffs, if anything… smh.

[Jonboy]

Replied to wrong person there Deisu I think.

[Dumlefudge]

Crowd Control, as a stat, doesn’t demonstrate itself all that well IMO - some weapons gain attack speed with it and, AFAIK, unless you get an abysmally low roll, the other modifiers would be hard to perceive (like, what’s the difference between 13 and 14 stagger? )

There’s probably breakpoints on certain weapons to stagger on first shot/burst, that you would need a certain amount of crowd control, but in general, I’m not sure how noticeable the difference between a 60 roll and an 80 roll would be, for instance.

In terms of its ability to apply stagger (and not the stat itself), a single Gorgonum burst will stagger most things. Crushers, ragers and Mauler may require more than 1 burst though

[Nish]

PS: As it seems others are clearly in agreement with me that “Ogryn is kinda Broken” what to do with players who rely on the clutch is something to take into consideration of course.

Clearing up some stuff and answering a few things, so let’s start with CC:

When referring to CC or Crowd Control, I’m talking about Stagger and Suppression. A general ability to stop the enemies from attacking you or the team and not Crowd Control as a weapon stat the usually means + attack speed.

@Geadly

But, let me ask an important question to you, why exactly do you want THE Ogrin to be nerfed, rather then any other class?

This is a good question that I should probably talk about in more detail.

@Nish

My main issue is that this power pushes Ogryns into playing less around their team since if their personal skill can keep the disablers and chip damage in check (which isn’t that hard to do) they don’t need much if any support/input from their teammates. It also felt (at least with the weapons I used) to be very simple to play, but maybe it was just not pushed into doing better/trying to master the weapons that much.

Currently, half the ogryns I play with on HiD and 90% of the Ripper+BB ogryns play “solo”, not caring about their team and only concentrating on killing anything in sight and pushing forward constantly. Any input from the teammates is pretty hard due to Ogryn being faster and Ogryns being large enough to block both views and ranged fire of the teammates. This issue is even worse in tight places.

The only difficulty where I feel like Ogryn is “forced” to let the teammates contribute is HiDSTG where the DPS requirement is so high he can’t just solo kill every incoming enemy, and pressure is high enough that even the Ogryn has to think at least a bit about his positioning. Survival wise there is basically minimal punishment that is easily soaked up by the enormous health pool, high DR, and extreme sustain. Even on HiDSTG it’s like 1/3 Ogryns that actually play actively around their team (to great effect I might add) and their weapon selection is usually more varied.

Something got to give. Either the TTK or survivability, but currently I feel like both are too high. I sympathetic to the fact that pillow fighting might not be fun, but BB, Gorgonum, and what I played with Ripper so far is anything, but that. What I’ve seen for good ogryns with different setups (Rumbler, GG, Baton, Brunt’s) they were both useful and effective while not going solo ninja thinking they are Zealots, so I don’t think that you need to rely on the current braindead clutch to do good. As for how it felt for them, well I don’t know.

Honestly playing with these Ogryns is worse than pre-nerf knife Zealots because at least they got overwhelmed and died if they were taking on too much.

Another problem is the brainless ease of use. It’s either that there is some skill you can develop in BB in which case the weapon is even more busted, or there isn’t which are both terrible. Compared to BB Ogryn a Caxe light-attack spam Zealot is an interesting skill intensive playstyle. Same with Gorgonum Stubber where it is accurate enough, has enough damage, and the crosshair is large enough that you can just spray in the general direction of the enemy (close or far) and it will die. You don’t really have to aim precisely or think about reloads or any number of other things.

There is also something about one of the tankiest characters that also has insane sustain doing the most damage that just feels wrong to me. In VT2 apart from Salt Zealot that was busted for a long time after a buff both offensively and defensively (running the overtuned sabre+axe) the more defense-orientated characters were rarely above the squishes, and Salt Zealot was clearly meant to be a high-damage “on-edge” character there and not tank/control design-wise.

Again, I don’t know the answer to how to balance it so it both feels good and isn’t overtuned to the point that you can just don’t care about your team even on HiD.

@Indy

I mean, I see those damage numbers all the time with vets running bolter and shredder, and personally have hit 420k in every class with certain builds.

Just to clarify my experience. The only thing that can out-damage an aggressive BB+Ripper/Gorgonum Ogryn when a said Ogryn is on the team:

1. Auto pistol vet running like maniac mag dumping everything produces around 5-8% more damage
2. My standard AB purgatus+Illisi build does around 20% more damage. (That’s the most damage-heavy build I have that in other situations can easily do 50% of the damage done by the team and can do even 600k+ damage on HiD if the game includes some deaths and such played to near-suicidal levels of aggression)
3. In specifically HiDSTG Bolter/Braced auto gun does around 10-20% more damage if the user is the only dedicated anti-special player and plays to a high level.

Never seen or was able to out-damage said aggressive ogryns with other setups yet, Including things like very good sweaty PS+Bolter which does 10% less damage or even less outside HiDSTG.

In theory, chasing damage numbers and actively putting yourself in terrible situations just so you can push yourself on the scoreboard might get you a bit above the Ogryn (if the Ogryn doesn’t do the same), but that’s something neither relevant nor desirable.

@CommanderJ

I have never played Ogryn, but considering the average quality and performance of the average Ogryn I run into on quickplay, I think nerfing Ogryn would be a monumental mistake.

This is something that I was first very sympathetic to, but…

This is an argument that could be made in relation to any class or weapon. Average Vet slap on the floor faster than a wet noodle when surrounded. Half of the psyker on t5 don’t even know they have a melee weapon. Flamer zealots are usually terrible with it and can’t ration their ammo. This doesn’t mean the classes or weapons are bad, maybe they just have to learn how to play the game, and BB and Gorgonum with their insane health pool don’t help at all.

To be fair having easy-to-use weapons is fine or classes that are easier to play, but when that is the only or the best/strongest option, there is something wrong.

If anything this and my future posts will be a pretty good reality check for Ogryn players that actually no, their class isn’t paper, and no they don’t have low damage, they actually do the most damage (with at least the weapons I tried so far).

[Overlord]

Issue I see here is the question, is balancing through a nerf worth the cost in general UX? Especially in pubs. Easy mode addressing of the issue is an outright nerf. But the heart of the issue here, IMO, is that the problem “build(s)” encourages antisocial play. I think that before we can talk about nerfs, under-performing weapons and builds need to be addressed first, then on top of that new means of punishing antisocial play need to be introduced, whether through a class rework or new enemy types or game mechanics. Then we can talk about taking the hammer or at least a spanner to the offending builds/equiptment.

But, this is FS, so we’re likely to get the nerf first, and then we’ll get months worth of threads about noobs and expert players alike whinging about ogryns either being Jesus on water good or garbage, no in between.

[Jonboy]

@Nish

with at least the weapons I tried so far

You levelled with a baton, then I assume from the fact you’re only really coming back now after you parked up the Ogryn for a long while.

Just interested to know how you found that levelling experience? One assumes, not unreasonably, that it didn’t blow you away.

I’ll re post my theory from before that maybe the combination of your basic DT skills and those weapons make a potent t5+ combination, but that maybe Ogryn plus other weapons, or maybe even Ogryn at a t4-t5 skill level is harder than vet at t4-t5 ?

I don’t Ogryn more than a Melk shop run. Just thought I’d clarify I’ve no agenda here other than interest and debate.

[Bankrotas]

@Dumlefudge

Crowd Control, as a stat, doesn’t demonstrate itself all that well IMO - some weapons gain attack speed with it and, AFAIK,

Yes, Thunderhammer has attack speed tied into Crowd Control modifier stat. However, we’re not talking about Crowd Control modifier stat, we’re talking about Crowd Control as a tool then, because Stubbers have Collateral as Crowd Control stat, which improves stagger.

@Dumlefudge

In terms of its ability to apply stagger (and not the stat itself), a single Gorgonum burst will stagger most things. Crushers, ragers and Mauler may require more than 1 burst though

And I’m saying it’s least relevant thing you want on a weapon, what you want is ability to kill crushers, ragers and maulers in timely manner. Not spend 80% of you belt on a single crusher.

I use my copious amount of all Ogryn weapons for fun, I don’t pretend even half of them are good. Especially stubbers.

[Reginald]

@Overlord

that the problem “build(s)” encourages antisocial play

I think we need to give up the ghost on forced social play. There is a limit to which we can force people into behaving by structuring the game and after a point, beyond the point of disablers that we do have already, we’re going to just make the game unfun. I hate being tied to my team mates and I hate having my entire win or loss decided by those same team mates. many such teammates are so bad that they are incapable of rescuing me from a single disabler out of the 30 or so that I might solo in some game scenarios. We then might wipe immediately afterwards.

builds should be nerfed only if they excessively overperform relative to some baseline. I’m not sure that we know what that baseline is. But the complete trivialization of all possible threats and no risk of defeat is definitely too much. Note the bully butcher by itself cannot do this.

[weeping.moon]

@Nish

posts that were considered the Ogryn’s survivability too low.

I swear such complains come from people who don’t use lynchpin.

@Aufgebracht

For what it’s worth I agree the Bull Butcher Cleaver is mindless and boring but our other weapons are just so inferior that there’s no competition.

Maul with haymaker+confident stike is a fine weapon, if you are tired with BB

@Nish

I have no idea how to tackle this issue. Both Bull Butcher and especially Gorgonum seem incredibly OP and should be adjusted, but how to balance out Ogryns offensive and defensive strength properly so it both feels good and isn’t over/undertuned is currently beyond me.

Just some random ideas:

• Increase basic toughness value a lot

• remove Lynchpin, give something like this for a better defense (fits ogryn size even)
  

• change confident strike to work on kills and adjust % for this

Shield:

• shield (and mauls also) blessing - restore toughness on stagger (instead of confident strike)
• haymaker blessing for shield
• ability to run with shield while blocking (with some speed or stamina cost penalties maybe)
• some (heavy prob) shield atacks should give block while charging (like Saltz priest has)
  

P.S. sadly we have no test server

[Nish]

@Jonboy

You levelled with a baton, then I assume from the fact you’re only really coming back now after you parked up the Ogryn for a long while.

Not exactly. I first leveled to around 22 then 28 then finished it a few weeks ago. I wasn’t really camping on it.

@Jonboy

You levelled with a baton, […]

Just interested to know how you found that levelling experience? One assumes, not unreasonably, that it didn’t blow you away.

I leveled at whatever highest difficulty was currently unlocked (so t5) targeting either low-Int or normal modified maps (when available) to maximize experience gain.
I used this Stubber (after the initial rumbler):

Which was pretty good against elites and shooters. Then switch to this GG I got from Emperor’s gift for the last 10-15 levels:

Which carried me to level 30, offering very good long-range sniping power and close-range nuking power that I needed.

This was the melee weapon used from the point I got it (used various greens/blues before that):

My weapon selection was adequate to carry games (albeit slowly) when teammates were bad, although I did leave like 2 games during the leveling because I’m not up for doing a 50-minute slogfest cos the teammates do close to nothing and just wait for me to progress.

The best brake points during leveling were levels 10 and 20 for the bleed build I was doing (The first leveling experience was before the +bleed build buff actually).

All in all, it was a slog, but I never felt like I was in danger. Defense wise I had no Toughness Regen on Curio that felt bad (I use 3 of those on every character). I used Best Form Of Defence for the leveling instead of Lynchpin.

Power Maul was actually doing great, it feels like a great weapon doing what it’s supposed to do (CC) while actually having some considerable damage output helping me during leveling. GG was great, but staying on Kraut Stubber probably would have been a better overall experience, I just didn’t want to sit back and shoot.

I can’t really relate my experience to any newcomers tho. They probably play t2-t3, maybe t4. I played t5. They probably upgrade their gear, I just saved everything for 30. I know the game, newcomers don’t. Etc.

@Jonboy

I’ll re post my theory from before that maybe the combination of your basic DT skills and those weapons make a potent t5+ combination, but that maybe Ogryn plus other weapons, or maybe even Ogryn at a t4-t5 skill level is harder than vet at t4-t5 ?

I kinda see the skill gap a bit differently. There are players who know how to play aggressively (like how to engage shooters) and those who don’t.

It took me 70-80 games on Zealot (with a previous 120 games on Vet) to figure out so I don’t say it’s easy but once it clicks the whole perception of class power basically flips.

Yes, you can play this game defensively, pull enemies into chokepoints, etc basically doubling the playtime, and yes psyker and Vet are far better suited for that, but once aggressive playstyle clicks suddenly Zealot and Ogryn rocket to the top of the power level (and by a lot).

Playing aggressively is more or less independent of “map knowledge”. For me, it translated to the new maps almost instantly.

Anyway, back to the point. It’s hard for me to judge the difference in leveling experience for someone that plays defensively, but for me, it was better than Psyker leveling experience. In relation, my SO (who plays Zealot very well, we sometimes do HiDSTG together) is currently leveling a Vet and has a pretty miserable experience, but Vet level 30 basically changes the game absolutely so I’m not surprised.

Based on weapon combos IDK, Pmaul and Shovel both seem good alternatives, and I’ve seen people talking about Brunt’s Basher as a good option (still worse than the BB but that’s just broken OP). For ranged I’ve seen both Rumbler and GG doing great. Take this with a grain of salt tho since I didn’t try these myself with an end-game setup. Might try some out myself after I’ve finished with Ripper cos I have a suspicion they aren’t as bad as most people make it out to be.

So for my skill level (which is good, but nowhere near Top Player good) Ogryn seems to be by far the easiest and safest class to play. By a mile. Zealot is slightly safer, but that’s probably because I have 300+ games on it and I’m pretty bad at ogryn.

[CommanderJ]

Again, I’ve never played Ogryn so I have no idea if it really is broken or not, but I really have never, ever come across an Ogryn that’s outdamaged me on the scoreboard. Ever. That’s with various non-purg, non-AB Psyker builds, and a whole slew of different Vet builds.

I have maybe once seen an Ogryn dart off to do stupid solo things and actually live. All the other times they have died quickly and embarrassingly, much like nearly ever single solo rush Zealot. I’m sure there exists people that can do crazy things with certain builds, but… Isn’t that true of every class?

[Nish]

@Reginald

many such teammates are so bad that they are incapable of rescuing me from a single disabler out of the 30 or so that I might solo in some game scenarios. We then might wipe immediately afterwards.

The horror of playing psyker or vet and knowing that the game might be going well, but you are one personal mistake away from a full party wipe is real… That’s the worst kind of adrenaline, seriously.

[MarxistDictator]

Is any character immune to that? One mistake as Ogryn and you aren’t in a position to refill toughness and you die very fast, since the spell of Ogryn’s tankiness is his ability to constantly top off toughness without killing anything. You may have a free wound but that only matters if you actually get picked up. I routinely have entire games go sideways from getting triple-netted in STG or something just like if I were anyone else. I find my biggest ‘lol why am I alive’ moments come from Volley Fire Veteran, myself…that is the best, most relevant tankiness available.

[Nish]

@MarxistDictator

Is any character immune to that?

Not really, but there are some major differences. You take anywhere from 50 to 200+ damage from mistakes on damnation, some enough to down a psyker and or a Vet while Zealot and Ogryn can just “walk it off”. 600 eHP is a lot on Ogryn and with the optimal triple gunner perk I’ve seen Ogryns getting shot while ressing by multiple scabs and it took like 20% of his health. Both the high health pool of Ogryn or the Damage immunity phase for Zealot allows for more time in the net for a late save or allows you to survive a mutant grab into the bomber fire, and you can add stun grenades and repositioning ult into the mix… There is no comparison really, It’s way worse on Vet and Psyker.

[Reginald]

I know i’m like the only dumbass that runs Faith Restores All but it does activate while downed. Its really funny to see my downed health careening upwards while im getting blasted by gunners. Sometimes really extends my lifespawn when downed. Which doesn’t happen that often because i’m a zealot, but i do get disabled from time to time. Usually trapper nets into fire put me down. I swear every time i get netted and flamer or bomber spawns just to insult me.

[MarxistDictator]

You mean to say that you have more HP? Yes, you can tank an errant hit as Ogryn, that you were probably exposed to anyway being Ogryn. Class identity is supposed to be a thing and ‘bulk’ is the only thing Ogryn has. Considering the ‘stagger’ he’s supposed to provide comes out the wazoo from his teammates. Along with close range firepower, which is also apparently an issue if he’s the one doing it? Ogryn is supposed to still have high firepower, just with a close range condition. Nothing is out of line here.

Is he supposed to have an element between nerfed movement, dodges, poor stamina regen almost as bad as vet and a hitbox that doesn’t let you utilize any cover?

Anyway if you hate 1 loadout on the least popular class, sure, but lets not pretend like BB3 and Gorgonum are topping the actually broken list. Confident Strike is also a bad design. Mk5 Ripper was always the best variant balanced by having less ammo but that was removed in their ammo quest rebalance that has made much worse monsters like Autopistol. That’s pretty much it. And with the state of ‘the rest of Ogryn’, nerfing the 2 weapons people will probably run is a bad call. I say this as a brunt club/shovel/mk4 chad running Kickback and Krourk stubber most days, if not MK6 Ripper.

[simpliv]

I don’t have much to contribute because I more or less agree with OP on most things.

One of my consistent hot takes is that I think the skill ceiling of ogryn is ironically higher than all of the other operatives available right now. Coincidentally, I think they have a much better time scaling into broken territory at the same time. Player sentiment across skill levels seems to reflect this take from time to time.

Players struggle to play ogryn often, and it’s usually obvious that a lot of players just don’t know how much power they’re holding in their hands. The sentiment toward Ripper Guns was pretty brutal for a while about it being one of the worst guns in the game, but I have no idea if that changed over time, especially now that Can Opener is a incredibly efficient anti-armor blessing. I see a lot less of the Grenadier Gauntlet compared to release, especially now that the Gorgonum Stubber is a thing.

Ogryn is a unique power fantasy that I’m surprised they even entertained for the game. I think that they pulled it off correctly and in a way that’s very consistent with lore, because having an ogryn back you up in a fight is nearly the equivalent of having a 50 IQ space marine around.

What I want to say specifically is that I’m always amused about how there’s always a new thread about ogryn and it’s either that they’re too underpowered or too broken. Whether or not they’re too boring is generally up to player appeal.

[Dumlefudge]

@Bankrotas

And I’m saying it’s least relevant thing you want on a weapon, what you want is ability to kill crushers, ragers and maulers in timely manner. Not spend 80% of you belt on a single crusher.

Well, trying to kill Crushers with just a stubber is wasteful.

---

w/r/t to the topic of Ogryn being broken/OP…

• I haven’t used the Bull Butcher in a long time (the SFX got annoying after a while), although I’m not entirely surprised at it being considered OP. It’s very good at a lot of things (Crushers being the notable exception); I’m curious as to why it gets Confident Strike tbh, since it kills things fast enough to maintain a steady stream of toughness on kill.
• With the Gorgonum… it’s reliable, to a fault. It’ll kill most things at most ranges and anything it doesn’t kill, it’ll stagger. I like most Ogryn ranged weapons but I feel like their weaknesses are much more apparent (whether that be armor, dealing with crowds, dealing with dispersed enemies, etc), whereas the Gorgonum’s weaknesses feel “okay” at worst.