NEW Topic - CONTINUED discussion - Fatshark needs to LISTEN to customers

That’s not an answer. What people were running it with crappy builds? What tactics did they use? Using your answer any random dude in QP could solo Legend but the thing is 1 out of 20 was really good. And even that 1 really good dude never carried the run solo(except for 1 moment when one of Siennas weapons was op as hell). So it looks like we have pretty different experience with VT2 Legend

1 Like

Yeah I am very well aware of that and have seen the Onslaught TS with Handmaiden but that’s not the way I would way I would play it
As I said I am not interested in True Solo speedrun and to be honest there isn’t much skill involved when true soloing/speedrunning half the map

2 Likes

Indeed. So the stagger-for-damage system has NO INFLUENCE ON DIFFICULTY OR PLAYSTYLE here. Everybody keeps saying the stagger-for-damage stuff “ruined the game” or whatever, but it has no negative effect on the gameplay as everybody says. It’s the cleave / stagger resist / dodge / enemy agressiveness / enemy tracking / enemy stacking / beastmen stuff / bugs that made 2.0 and onwards more difficult than 1.6.

Sidenote repeating a point from earlier post: No matter what your loadout is YOU DO NOT NEED TO PUSH STUFF TO BE MAXIMALLY EFFECTIVE IN THE STAGGER-DAMAGE SYSTEM ERA ANYMORE. (As was the case in the earlier closed Beta versions.) This is especially true if you chose specific talents like assassin, smiter, or increased power. Do the math: If you open a fight with a push instead of an attack, the damage you lose from the first move not being an attack will not be compensated by the damage bonus from the stagger from your push. This is especially true if you take into consideration that your first attack will also cause some stagger, Especially since the last few patches Fatshark made, which shows they DO listen!!! ( <- For everybody who keeps complaining about that in this thread…) You hate the game because you feel like you need to push stuff all the time now? YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG.

Stagger-for-damage as-is also HAS NO NEGATIVE EFFECT ON WEAPON CHOICE. You replied to me before in an earlier post in this thread about how the current meta is narrow anyways? Yes, but that is because of all the other stuff. As-is, stagger-for-damage even broadens the weapon meta. Remove stagger-for-damage and not change anything else: The meta would become more narrow. A lot of the current top-tier weapons would be just as good. No weapon would be better. Some weapons would be worse.

Exactly. So much has changed. And everybody is staring themselves blind on stagger-for-damage as a culprit for the changed feeling. But is is only helping, and not harming, right now! Forget the first editions of the closed Beta. The difference between then and now is HUGE.

On Legend: Crit one shot; no (I think?). Crit fully charged Headshot twice; yes. (So you need luck and quite some skill, this is in the thick of the battle harder to pull off than you might think.) But I believe it could already do that on Witch Hunter Captain with some power vs. Chaos in 1.6 anyways.

3 Likes

They literally did this though, appeasing a smaller group of elitists, speedrunners, witch-stramers and youtubers, giving a middle finger to the rest.

Did you ever hear anyone in V1 say “I sure wish we had leaderboards?” :rofl:

1 Like

FF14 was remade from the ground up after realizing that it sucks. FF7 remake is being redone because they realized it wasn’t good enough.

Making a mistake and fixing it is a sign of strength.

Making a mistake and doubling down on it, is a sign of stupidity.

4 Likes

Shields would become directly worse if beastmen were nerfed or enemies have less hp regardless of the stagger system. Fix slotting so shields aren’t more valuable because of hyper stacking other weapons simply can’t deal with in an enclosed space? They’re weaker. Reduce health such that other weapons can start cleaning high density hordes? They’re weaker. The weapon itself is only an enabler for other careers.

Meanwhile on the other side of this

1H axe and 2H axe were better
Now they’re not. Directly attributed that the increased amount of hp and the ways to circumvent that are directly related to the implementation of the stagger system. Secondly the stagger system is not ONLY the stagger changes or the damage done. It’s the restructuring of the systems of the game to implement it.
And every single reduction of any of these values is a comparative massive buff to this new system that all of our damage is now backended in. Pushing and various high stagger are necessary now where they weren’t before because hordes have more risk spots and various higher risk factors to engage with them. You should try and engage a beast horde with a 1h axe but you’re going to get stuffed. Stagger provides more damage to compensate the overall inflation of values.

So let’s do these in order:

  • Why are people pushing?
    Horde Management. Slots, health, range, dodge, hp, and of course stagger (but less so with the reduction of resistances to it) all combine to make for more dangerous encounters.
  • Why do they hate the system?
    Slows maps down. Introduces risk factors outside of control for circumventing it. Before I absconded my wins started becoming consistent again because I put a shield on and started spamming push. What an appalling scenario.
  • Why do they hate beastmen
    Low cleave, high range, arrow attacks that interrupt actions, push, and stun, a flag which destruction almost only affects you the player, and various other messes like hyper stacking in the new slot system as well as reintroduction of bugs like thin air spawns and infinite horde music
  • Why do they find this new game harder
    My my. Let’s crack open another early morning beer and start reflecting shall we!

Oh boy do we have a metric truck load to talk about this at one So quit reading right here for some safety to sanity. For reference this will be entirely focused on how Cata is, though I guess a lot of these factors still apply to legend.
First: Here are my thoughts on the 4Ss of constructive skilled growth.
[The 4 S's: Sight, Sound, Spawns, and Specials]
TL;DR
The conditions between enemies, elites, bosses, and specials should always be presented with a set of values that allow for clean dispatch with necessary identification and a healthy dose of on demand reaction speed. We’ll only touch upon one here.

Sight
Essentially the pillar of skilled play. Reaction requires identification, right?

  • In a game I had a mauler, two marauders, and four berserkers climb a ledge
    Well what’s the problem with that?
    I only SAW a mauler and a marauder climb up that ledge because they were hyper stacked into each other. These situations happened before at almost an extremely rare occurrence. Now it’s basically the rule for all ledge and drop pathing interactions to occupy at least an entire host of enemies. Removing the ability to even properly assess what is or is not a viable threat that requires immediate attention reduces skilled growth and forces the same response regardless of the reality of the components of those drops

  • The Globaider is throwing!
    Business as usual right?
    Wrong. Let’s explain something we’ll be talking about at length later. The existence of a no-win scenario. You see, if you hear the sound of a globaider coming in 1.6 you had a reasonably high chance to do a few things. Identify the direction it was coming, see it’s approach (depending on level) and finally, formulate and execute a plan for dispatch before the worst case occurs (gassed out of your defensive position). There is exactly 0 (zero) preventive measures a person can reasonably assume to stop a globadier tossing over two buildings and outside of line of sight. You know the general direction so if you’re playing two specific jobs in the game and your specials are up you maybe can respond. But this then creates a scenario which staggers expression because you must then ONLY save these tools which are designed for frequent use entirely around a single enemy.

  • Beasts! I love these goatmen!
    You know what. For a few changes so would I

  1. Being attacked outside of your range with spears outside of possible identification conventions is not the exception, it’s the rule. It’s a rule so far engrained now that every single SPARE ACTION has to be dodging to avoid taking an attack you can’t see. This is bad. It provides no expression and no room for growth.
    So why is this important
    Easy my friend. Things are harder to see. Which means incidental hits outside of specific approach philosophies (being to just blindly push into a wave with a shield with increase range and strength or gunning things down with the already good in 1.6 throwers) is disproportionately harder to avoid. Tools aren’t available for skilled growth.
  1. Hunger in the Dark has always been a delightful little nightmare. What’s not delightful is that huddling around the cart is an exceptionally bad idea during beasthordes due to their range. Never you mind problems with flags going down SOMEWHERE you won’t be able to see
    What else?
    3)Being attacked through walls. When holding a choke point. Is the single largest reason I stopped playing this game. This should never happen. This has exactly 0 tools for visual identification or prevention.
    These are fine you say?
    If the game is now designed around taking guaranteed damage, the game is no longer about skilled expression

TLDR: Player growth requires effective visual tools. These have been reduced or eliminated.

And at the risk of chopping this post up more than I already have. A special mention to Rattling Gunners, who can rush you down now (good) but without appropriate levels of sound identification, sometimes even being silent as the open up on your doorway (bad)

Edit: Also special mention to how quick downed players die now or garbage like every elite/special on the planet just laser targeting their body. Oh you fell down and there’s a globadier anywhere on the map AND we’ve got two grims? I guess you’re just dead now buddy! Though to be fair if their intention was for people to run revival speed, it certainly has worked. Because that’s exactly what I run to take care of the damage tax I now have to pay during my maps to pick somebody up when I’m FK or IB

In conclusion:

  • Hordes are harder to deal with because visuals are all jacked up
  • Hits can happen outside of basic rules
  • Spawns and sounds are thrown out of whack, including the backstab sound warning.
  • Stronger tanker hordes give less clearing room for coordinated efficient dispatching of a correctly identified and prepared for special(s) or elite(s)
  • No-prevention no-win conditions exist in dealing with problems before they become a problem.

The stagger system is icing on the cake of a cascading array of bad decisions and resurfacing bugs. It’s impossible to talk about the stagger system as an isolated occurrence when that term involves ALL of the changes that loop back into it. The most optimal method of play for consistent clears is the most boring one in this game now. This is a bad thing. Not to mention what that means for balance.

Nobody. And I mean nobody. Has fun while they sit behind me playing “kill the stragglers” while I drakegun hallways from map start to map finish. And I don’t have fun when I play “spam the knockdowns” during bad engagement locations and boss/elite interactions. This isn’t’ interesting. It isn’t engaging. And it’s not even teamwork. It’s a mess.

6 Likes

(emphasis added by me)

^This,100%. I agree with the rest of the post as well. I keep trying to play the game each day because I want to enjoy it again, but I can’t stand it for more than 5-10 minutes at a time. To me, it’s just not even remotely fun to play with the way they’ve re-tuned combat. What used to be in my top 3-5 games of all time has become a game I want to uninstall after playing for 5 minutes.

4 Likes

The way FF14 was handled is now a masterclass in regaining players trust and effective management decision making.

Public apologies to players, removal of subscription fees, complete rebuilding of the game and effective methods to reinstate players faith in the whole brand - PERMANENTLY reduced subscription fees for those players who continued to play while the new version was being developed and massively extended free-to-play periods as well as lots of free cosmetics for those who had brought the game.

One of the key criticisms of the design team of the original FF14 was “the mentality that any bugs can be fixed in a future patch.” Meaning the original beta and launch of the game was completely riddled with bugs and much maligned systems that the design team refused to change.

Ring any bells?


We’re getting back into the realm of huge complaints about the non-fun gameplay for people at EVERY LEVEL. That’s what’s important for me, and what I think FS should listen and react to. Even the lowliest person slogging through Veteran (and I’ve got a couple of friends who are so casual due to having brand new little babies that they just want to tootle through things having fun) right up to people who are looking at putting Deeds and Twitch into Cata - EVERYONE is complaining how it’s just not much fun anymore. Apart from @Torantolis :slight_smile: I like that guys posts. He’s a much needed solitary sunbeam :slight_smile:

Are Fatshark going to simply keep slogging along, fixing bugs “At a later date” or SOON™ and hope someone somewhere still plays? Could they now make a bold decision and roll back to 1.6 or something like 1.8 -an improved 1.6?

6 Likes

The answer to the 1st question is obviously yes. I dont think they will be rolling back to a previous build at any point. I actually think if they had left v1.7 as it was, did NOT add in that silly stagger-to-damage model, and simply slowly balanced and tweaked the game AFTER they put out WoM it would have made them MUCH more money. Their fans would be content and hopeful and game sales would show it

I just cant understand how they think that going against a large portion of their consumer base is a wise decision in ANY conceivable way!?

I am a hardcore player, I love this game, I love the games engine, and because of that… I remain hopeful. But imagine how many casual players will drop the game like a hot rock when they see this 2.0 mess?

It sure isnt just how I feel… or ALL (yes, ALL) my friends feel… its GOTTA hurt them in the bank account. THAT you think would do it. So then maybe they just havent SEEN the effect 2.0+ has had yet?

Optimistically pessimistic lol

2 Likes

Hmm, can I add something else? Sticking together is also a negative when handling hordes with elites mixed in since their attacks cleave just enough that even if it wasn’t targeting you, but because you were sticking together you get mauled by them.

4 Likes

Then dont be masochist but do not ask FS to nerf cata, do whenever you want with lesser difficulties, but let cata be cata… There is people who do cata, not offten since it really require: Good team, communication, dedication (not to disband after a wipe) and LUCK (even best players in world will wipe there)

People whines are mainly l2p based, people got used to rambo style, like rushing foward like an idiots, in Winds, this rambo style can be played up to champion, after that point, evry rambo style gameplay will end into shameful defeat… harder dificulties require cooperation which is good, not you being son of Sigmar himself and rushing foward and smashing anyhting before your mighty left click. (im glad stuff like this not work anymore on legend and cata)

1 Like

Please, stop saying this crap. A lot of us don’t like the combat, even when we’re winning. Just stop.

5 Likes

Everything you said there @Tekut is totally true. I agree with 100% of it

EDIT: EXCEPT the ‘rambo style can be played up to champion’ crap – HELL no – UNLESS of course, you are one of the fools I speak of often, when asked… and sometimes when NOT asked… because they might actually agree with that – though it would make no sense that you are, as you seemed very pro-teamwork, which is the opposite, and CORRECT way to play the game

I should say though… I dont own the expansion. I havent TRIED cata. All I know, is legend has had quite a substantial difficulty hike in 2.0

The cata reference is simple. I have never PLAYED cata (I dont own the expansion) but… If they did THIS to LEGEND, imagine what they did with CATA!?

But absolutely, its TEAMWORK that wins a game. And RAMBOS that lose it! I just call the rambos elitists or circle chasers lol

I dont know what l2p IS… btw… lol

I’ll just barrel in and say it’s not always Rambo’s Circle-Chasers that lose. I got leeched and dragged through a Storm along with someone getting gunned down by a Gunner spawning up their jumper and another player getting hooked. Last guy standing had virtually no hope of coming back from that. I’m sure someone will say that’s RNG and probably could’ve been avoided but sound cues being borked and gunners shrugging off bullets/arrows/fireballs to keep shooting is just harsh.

Crank up the difficulty all you like in Cata. But difficulty shouldn’t be wholly unjust or downright cheap deaths - no matter the difficulty.

9 Likes

I agree. With ONE word. ‘always’. You are right its not 100%. I have seen those circle chasing, anti-teamwork, competition loving players FINISH the mission too. Hmm… I wonder what the ACTUAL % IS? Im sure you get my point

Pointing out another portion of this quote. ‘coming back’. Soooo he had to ‘COME BACK’ did he? You know what? Im gonna assume you KNOW what I mean and you have had SIMILAR experience, because if you HAVENT had similar experience then you are either LUCKY as HELL to not have to deal with those players, or you ARE one and are looking for another ‘excuse’ as to why TEAMWORK isnt the POINT of this CO-OP game

^ theres your barrel

My point here is that defending a player that treats a CO-OP, TEAMWORK oriented game, as though he is playing a SOLO game, goes against what the game was designed for. Teamwork. to. Complete. a. Mission.

I mean no offence, but I will be DAMNED if I EVER dont call out a fool like that…

OR am I misunderstanding? Did you mean that sometimes even good TEAMWORK can fail? Sure. I fail on my teams a lot since 2.0 lol

1 Like

With this one I can agree, they can hotfix some gameplay but in same time retain difficulty. Im just against nerfing dificulty, im OK with hotfixes generaly if they goin to retain difficulty.

Like anyone else I also got list which I wish to be hotfixed in future

  • 1 shooting policy in high weaves and cata - good in theory but this is online game, lag hit can always happen
  • I noticed enemy love to spawn near us, I got dozens situations when i do 360 degree scout, and no enemies then 0.5 sec after i get hited from area i just checked.
    -When disablers jump you on high weave you play 90 % HP of Die (this will be ok if those disablers not spawn 5m from you and start attack animation even during spawn process).

However buff enemies by other way to retain dificulty

1 Like

Safer than sticking together in current state of the game.

1 Like

By coming back, I meant recovering the team from the triple-down at once. Whether they’re miles ahead or right next to you, having several wholly annoying deaths almost at once is difficult to recover from - especially as the Leech, Gunner and FattyStormer were still firing on all cylinders.

I’m not defending the kind of solo play that you seen angry about, and in fact pushing ahead is getting punished hard now and rightly so. Purely on the opposite side of the argument, bunching up can cause similar problems as the hordes are concentrated on one place and hyperdense stacks of things, coupled with the mix of heavies in the horde you can easily 2 people get hit (and downed?) with the same overhead attack of a CW, Mauler, SV - not to mention the SheepGuys.

[edit] I’ve seen your edit - I mean that the current harshness of the difficulty is showing up in QP, and even people who are attempting to fight together can get completely ruined in under ten seconds. I’ve seen far less YOLO Shade/HM since 2.0.x which is nice. I’ve seen far more ridiculous and downright savage wipes.

In reality, you cannot force teamwork, and punishing people in QP for not rumbling around like a bunch of 10 year olds chasing a football is just that - punishing people. I don’t support a change back to 1.6 dodge dance +Shade one shotting Bosses somewhere in the distance, but I think attempting to make players stick together by having severe punishment for not even being in Line of Sight of someone is a step too far in the other direction. In short, FS have changed far too much for the average or even competent player to adjust to and Sigmar knows how the hell it’s getting balanced because so much is different.

Fundamental changes are needed. Welcome to Early Access.

2 Likes

Just so we are clear… I DID misunderstand at 1st… but after I wrote all that I TOTALLY used it as an excuse to BASH a fool… NO not you. To YOU I absolutely meant no offense… But the fools I was talking about!? Oh yeah… lol

Interesting point to make though further into your response

As I see it here I cant agree. I still may be misunderstanding though

I dont think this change was related to ‘punishing’ anything. The dodge dancers included. So, pre 2.0, dodge allowed for even high difficulty content to be trivialized, and working towards a rebalancing of that ISNT a bad thing at ALL. You may call it ‘punishing’ and I would probably just call it inevitable and a GOOD direction to take dodge. How far to go? No idea. Did they go too far? Maybe, possibly even most likely? I have no idea. Is it JUST the dodge changes that affect the near uselessness of dodge dancing as it currently is in 2.0? I’d say the answer is more complex than that

So it may SEEM to the dodge dancers that it is punishment. But it isnt

Similarly…

The stagger-to-damage mechanic seems punishing to ME… as I HATE the damn thing… but… you think FS is PUNISHING me? Or you think they have a vision of how their game SHOULD be played, and that is part of the continued scope of development, wether I like it or not?

Tho if you ask ME - they NEED to remove it and REVERT! lol

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu