NEW Topic - CONTINUED discussion - Fatshark needs to LISTEN to customers

Oh GOD do I EVER hope you are right @Chaos5715. I am very pessimistic in nature, and love it when someone else… ISNT. lol

Ok enough. I need to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

Yes.

Fatshark has HEARD what players have said. AND implemented changes to that end

The stagger resistance reduction, the talents (that you already had) being hidden behind a level wall you now need to climb again etc. And I am sure those arent the only ones

My problem isnt as I have said, something small. I can gain that talent I lost. NOT a problem. My elf is +580 or something in level? My Saltz is +450 or something? My Dwarf is +420 or something. Another 5 levels? Not a problem. But hey! This STAGGER to DAMAGE thing… Can I DISABLE IT!? Nope. lol

And now you have people that like the mechanic, so what do you do?

Disable it to everyone? That would anger a few people, not just players but also possibly the devs working on it.

Disable it for some? Well talk about a balancing nightmare, I thought balancing was the main issue with the stagger here.

You can tell they are now trying to change it so everyone is at least content if not happy.

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LOVE this question, because for ONCE I have an ANSWER!

EASY!

Find out what their players, no, CUSTOMERS think. ASK them DIRECTLY in a HUGE poll whether they should completely remove the stagger mechanic from the game. Then DO it.

I may be under some sorta misconception here as I previously stated, but Id be willing to bet my LEFT LEG that those who ask for its REMOVAL will GREATLY outnumber those who wish it to stay

^ But, as illustrated earlier its pretty hard to know for sure what people think. Thats what these discussions are for. Id be willing to bet, based on my experience, that Im right… but what the hell do I know? Maybe I AM in the minority?

Imagine though? A REAL answer from the players.

Such an easy answer. Do what makes your customers happy…

No matter if I like it or not…

Polls aren’t that bulletproof either. There are a lot of people that don’t participate or even know about them. Now one day they find out the new mechanic they grew to like isn’t there anymore.
And like I said, ot also needs to be balanced with the intetions, plans and vision of the devs.

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Hi, it’s me, the guy with constructive input usually.

If you had asked me 3-4 days ago about Fatshark listening to customers, I would have had very different things to say.

However, given this information:

  1. Level 35 talents are back at level 30

  2. Amulet of Ashur is global to all characters

  3. Various changes reducing influence of stagger since 2.0.3

  4. I saw the first example this morning of a community post from the beta, to my knowledge, directly resulting in a gameplay mechanic change reflecting the suggestion itself, according to a developer that says it’s scheduled for a future release: Just reward (Bounty Hunter's lvl 30 talent) needs a reconsiderstion (as a side note, don’t scare off a dev by spamming him just because I linked his post in a positive way)

Given this information, I am able to at least give Fatshark the benefit of the doubt that they are listening to customers, but their exact process is not too transparent. Once you release something and have significant dev/design time around a feature, it’s hard to justify throwing that work away outright. Especially imagine from the dev perspective “oh yeah they hate everything, just chuck it and rollback everything”. That’s very demoralizing for a dev. It’s demoralizing if it was their idea and it’s demoralizing if it wasn’t their idea, but they were the one assigned to implement it. It sucks having features pulled from the live environment because people hate them.

So far, they want a compromise solution to stagger that will hopefully make everyone happy, but it takes time to find that balance.

To be honest, I think the big 2.0 release should have been broken up into smaller releases. It would’ve allowed more directed feedback to the individual issues: Cataclysm, stagger, Beastmen, talents, weapon changes, and Weaves. Individually, the problems with each of these things are not too bad, but they snowballed into this mess where suddenly everyone hates different things in 2.0 and everything feels like it’s on fire, so everyone is fixing something in house.

If it was something like:

  1. Stagger = 1.7 patch ~ maybe late April or early May

  2. Cataclysm (free update tbh, feels weird to pay for a difficulty) = 1.8 patch ~ mid-July, maybe accompanied with the betas for new stuff as a separate thing

  3. Talents/weapons = 1.9 patch ~ based on feedback driven from beta above

  4. Winds of Magic (Beastmen + Weaves) = 2.0 patch ~ based on feedback driven from beta, given more time to fix WoM-specific stuff instead of just the talent reworks and weapon changes.

I think the changes would have been more well-received and they could actually observe player numbers and feedback directed at each individual things, as opposed to “oh god people are just angry about everything and frothing at the mouth”. It also would’ve just been nice to have an update thrown in every now and then to show “hey we’re working on stuff, try out some changes”.

The jump from 1.6 to 2.0 was jarring for a lot of players.

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Ok now this is semantics, polls, no polls, participation, no participation (yes, its a Kung-Fu Panda reference - Im a big kid lol)

There is no bulletproof way of doing it. As you stated earlier, anything you do is gonna pi55 someone off. Cant please everyone was another posted earlier. All true. All we can do is do our best to find out what hardcore gamers think. If you have 1000+ hours in the game, and play it daily, then perhaps there is a REASON you keep playing it? Maybe you have the game experience to explain WHY you SHOULD or SHOULD NOT have such a system. Earlier @flisker said ‘I could write an essay on why the stagger mechanic is a bad thing’ or something similar (please excuse me, I am not quoting here)… and I bet he is right. Now ask someone with 50 hours in the game. He can answer, but I bet his experience limits him to giving an in depth response

I am not saying only those with a lot of in game hours somehow have a ‘more valuable’ opinion. All are equal in that regard, but wouldnt you rather hear a review of a game from someone that actually gave it a chance? Dont you think their input has more collateral weight because of their time spent in the game?

Either way, nothing is certain. I have no answers, just questions.

One thing tho…

2.0 sucks lol

Holy crap @scottz0rz

That IS constructive! You live up to your name :wink:

Nothin in there I disagree with and would endorse it if asked…

I did acknowledge ‘the elephant in the room’ earlier… perhaps a little late… but that list (although recent) isnt the only time FS has listened. I remember a topic I made about glaive responsiveness and this annoying buffered attack that couldnt be block cancelled. Now, I know it wasnt JUST my post that did it, but literally… the next patch (which was the next day in this case) it was completely resolved

I mean, I crap on Fatshark… but I dont MEAN to if you know what I mean. I expect MORE. Damnit I have gotten the best game ever made and now? I want it BETTER! Its never enough you know… lol

Heck, one day I was talking to a friend in my lobby and I we were talking about how people only ever post on the forums when they have bad things to say or deal with… so I went on and posted something POSITIVE. They arent evil… they just make decisions that have a greater negative impact than they anticipated. At least, thats what I believe

I just dont like the stagger-to-damage model. Period. No matter when they rolled it out, Id be all whiney and rollin around on the ground screaming like a 5 year old either way lol

One more time…

2.0 sucks lol

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lol, well my opinion is different.

i KNOW most devs knew before the game even went live these things would be issues (density, phasing, phantom swing, etc) because they heard all about it during the original Beta.

I think most devs knew it would be an issue somewhere long before the Beta. I bet they brought this stuff up in staff meetings.

because I can tell that the average fatshark worker loves their product. it’s obvious. they do care. all one has to do is look at vt1 and how much time they invested into fixing stuff when there was no profit from doing so. they did it because they love the game.

so somehow the guys who actually do stuff knew their would be problems had their concerns ignored and they were told to ‘just do it anyway’ and now here we are with these same guys who knew it wouldn’t work being told to fix it.

want to bet the clown that told them do it this way is still sitting in his corner office with nice view and got a hefty bonus out of it has managed to completely remove themselves from any responsibility for their screw up? that’s what I’d bet my left leg on.

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There was not a frickin single solid argument on why the stagger mechanic makes any sense as global mechanic applied to everything in this game, and there was long list of issues it produces. So if in that case devs still think it’s amazing well than they push and than they get pain from public like they got on pre-release and like they are getting now.

Either the arguments are good or not, it doesn’t matter if it comes from one guy or 20.

In this case it wasn’t just few people being against it.

So if something is not working well and it’s creating all sorts of issues, it’s wise to still keep it because otherwise it would be too hard emotionaly on the dev who wrote the code ?

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Interesting way of saying it. Question: Are you saying that listening to your customer base, and then implementing their suggestions can lead to that?

Is this all this topic is about?
I thought it’s a discussion whenever Fatshark is listening to their fans or not. I feel like @scottz0rz made a pretty compelling argument to the fact that they are indeed listening.

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Thats what I said. Now… on to the point.

…I hope they are listening

They do listen sometimes, but this isnt a simple change and in my experience, it has been a negative one. I am not the only one I am sure. Some have agreed, and some have disagreed. This is a forum to relay your thoughts, as @scottz0rz did, very eloquently

This topic is about speaking your mind, and your experience with 2.0 as well as a place where you can say something negative (god forbid! GaSP!) OR positive about these game changing mechanics

My version of that is simple. Stagger to damage. Its a BAD thing. I have heard, and am looking for other beta testers to speak up, that FS had received an overwhelmingly negative response from their beta testers and then did not implement those suggestions. Opposite of good business practice

Question remains still. Why? Why now, but not before in beta. Why go through all the changes and only now decide to for the most part revert quite a bit?

Good question. Makes no sense to me

You mean before the release right? And they did that, WoM released yesterday. Beta is there to test and adjust, of course they won’t implement it before the beta.

Edit: missed the “in” in “before in beta” but point still stands, they did change it when it was still in beta.

Uhh, of course. The question would make no sense otherwise…

But… If you don’t like having to stagger for extra damage, isn’t that what the power talent is for?

Yes, Chaos, but it shouldnt BE there in the first place

Stagger should be a stagger-to-keep-enemy-from-attacking thing… not a stagger-equals-extra-damage thing

Those talents? They shouldnt BE there. If you wanna rework talents, DO it, but dont add a mechanic like this that changes the core game. If it was WoM only, fine. You BUY into that mess. But for GODS sake, dont make the rest of us

EDIT: Sorry I edited to answer your…

Why not?