No that is not at all what i proposed.
Correct.
And my suggestions (smaller mag with longer reload, or longer reload and overheat mechanic) would solve that problem without changing how effective the flamer is, while it is used.
That does not change anything if you already do not need to reload during an encounter.
You really want to kill this weaponâŚ
A nerf should never make something totally useless. If just cause frustration to the players.
I agree that this weapon is too strong. However, I would never want to make it a so bad that it will be part of the 80% of weapons that few people use cause they are really bad weapons.
Stop lying.
And stop misrepresenting what i say.
If you think that my suggestions would kill the weapon, the Psykerâs Staffs must have never been useful to you.
Because the performance is whatâs overpowered.
Flamer hits too many targets. Itâs okay for it to hit The Most Targets of any weapon. Itâs not okay for it to essentially be infinite targets as long as they fit in the ~15m range. So the fix is pretty straightforward to just reduce the range or the âcleave targetsâ of the thing.
Additionally, because they shouldnât offer extremely ammo inefficient weapons. Imagine the game offering a feat that letâs you âEat a medkit to gain +20% power for 60 secondsâ. Well thatâs a powerful thing right? Even the title of the feat makes it sound like it should be powerful.
But is it healthy for the game to have one player selfishly burn through the teamâs resources that way? If this was an XCOM style game then giving one of my teammates the ability to eat a medkit or burn through ammo for crazy damage would make sense, but this is a coop PVE shooter and so those types of things are mostly just toxic.
Thatâs my opinion⌠This is not cause you say something that it is the truth.
I can return your arguments. You misrepresenting what I proposeâŚ
I repeat, a too strong nerf can kill a weaponâŚ
The psykerâs staff doesnât work like the flamer. You donât need ammo and you donât have to reload.
Youâre right on this⌠But, in my opinion, the âtoo strongâ is linked to the fact that this weapon can kill any specialist and most of the elites (except the crushers).
Correct. But
And somehow this sounds quite a bit like what i suggested should be the treatment for the zealot flamer.
The zealot flamer would still have a longer continuous attack than the psyker staff.
And the zealot flamer attack would still be just as strong as it is now.
Except it would no longer empty the entire canister in one go, but require you to wait a bit in between.
I play a psyker also⌠you wonât convince me.
An overheat mecanism without any way to lower the overheat quickly would be the best solution.
Actually, with a psyker you can reduce the peril really fast⌠and recover toughness also with the right feat.
The great thing about saying something that is just objectively true, is that i do not need to convince you of anything. It is true either way.
So exactly what i suggested.
no⌠you want also to reduce the amount of âfuelâ in the canister and reduce ammo.
Combinated at an overheat system, this would kill this weapon.
You want to kill a fly with a bombâŚ
I will just debunk this with a quote of what i acutally said.
Just in case you do not understand, i will make it very clear:
EITHER: smaller mag with longer reload
OR: longer reload and overheat mechanic
I never said that.
If you think i did: citations please.
Why reload longer if there is an overheat mecanism?
Thereâs really no need to put two nerfs to solve one problem.
But smaller mag is, in my opinion, the worst thing either.
The nerf should or either a longer reload, but it wonât forbid you to use it continuously, or an overheat mecanism, and here it can forbid the problem.
Or, it can also be something else that would address the problem that pointed Axehilt.
Right about that.
I think purgatus staff is in a more balanced spot than the flamer. So, would people agree in principle that the flamer should be at best only as powerful as the purgatus staff? Given that the staff is the Psykerâs main weapon and the flamer is the zealots alternative weapon, maybe we could even agree that it should actually even be a little less powerful?
I suppose thatâs a reasonable argument against the âcleave targetâ solution (which addresses the horde-killing being out of control, but not the ability to kill special/elites simultaneously while horde-clearing).
But yeah it does sound like another great solution would be reducing its damage against all non-horde targets (letting it clear horde in a ridiculous way, but not any bigger targets within the horde). Theyâd have to ensure those big targets werenât staggered too.
So just a reduction to base damage (including burn DOT) with a damage bonus against horde targets (if it doesnât already have one; this would be like âCleave Damageâ stat that appears on melee weapons where itâs mostly just about improving your multiplier against those target types). This would give it amazing horde-clear, but bad DPS against most other things (though probably okay damage against Infested specials/elites, since Infested is one of those horde damage multipliers). Seems like a reasonable spot for the weapon to be, though it does still feel like it invalidates melee a little.
Itâs also just really boring, as someone once mentioned. A heat meter would definitely make it a more interesting weapon if it could somehow affect weapon performance. I mean if this game were pure Doom-style fantasy weâd expect that at 30% heat gauge it starts two new jets of flame for a fan-like spread of flamethrowing (at the cost of even faster heat-gain and ammo use). So maybe thereâs a less ridiculous solution a bit like that where it still feels grounded in ârealityâ but makes the weapon more interesting without being 100% penalty (heat by default is 100% penalty unless you provide rewards for 'run hot")
The plasma gun uses an overheat system and has a big magazine.
(if the amount of heat generated by the plasma gun is balanced or not, is not issue of this discussion)
That system is, what i suggested for the flamethrower.
Why make the reload long, if there is an overheat mechanism?
Because if the reload is short, the downside to removing the heat by reloading mid combat, is small.
If the reload is long, it is more reasonable to just keep fighting with a melee weapon, and to swap back to the flamethrower for a few seconds during high pressure situations (once it has cooled off).
When there is a short break during an intense fight (or you drop a stun grenade), you can still reload to remove the heat faster.
If this was applied to the flamethrower, the mag capacity could actually be increased to the point where you almost never need to reload.
The flamethrower would still be able to burn a massive hole into a horde and just delete a bunch of enemies (including elites).
But users would be incentivized to swap back and forth between their weapons instead of going full flamethrower mode for the entire duration of a horde (and pretty much any time more than 3 enemies are around).
You could have a different overheat system than the plasma rifle.
The overheat would raise, but it would decrease really slowly.
It would mean you can do damages but once youâre at close to the 100% limit you would have to rely on melee weapon⌠something totally normal for a zealot.
Well, anyways, it is up to Fatshark⌠and to be honest, we are yet waiting for the blog about crafting that was planned this week⌠a blog, while we should have crafting since decemberâŚ
Or just give armored enemies some burning damage resistance
I have suggested that by the pastâŚ
In combination with what you said earlier (dumping 2 mags -and therefore reloading once- before reaching max heat), this sounds like it would change nothing in regard to zealots burning down every horde spawn throughout a mission (unless the overheat lasts multiple minutes, so that you can not use the flamer during every horde).
Also, i think that having the overheat stay for incredibly long and not having a way to remove it faster, is not a good idea because it disables the weapon for a long time and would basically make a flamethrower user exist in 3 states.
As you said⌠it would force to use it just against hordesâŚ
and thatâs where we disagree. The flamer should be an horde cleanerâŚ